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Game Balance


Ellsiera's Avatar


Ellsiera
05.31.2018 , 03:23 AM | #1
Can you Sents | Maras solo a skranker 1v1?

Used to be we could solo these guys, but now they can wear DPS Gear & USE THEIR DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS to outlast us.

How is this suppose to be balanced?

Sents | Maras can't wear Tanking gear.

My understanding was they received a nerf in the last patch but they're still topping the leader boards at the end of a PVP match.

Further, on the fleet ppl call for skrankers for ops PVE (they have the DPS & the taunt)

Interested in feedback from the community regarding how to manage these Skrankers 1v1.

Also interested in what the devs are saying about this.
(Have you heard anything ?)

Cheers.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
05.31.2018 , 07:19 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Ellsiera View Post
Can you Sents | Maras solo a skranker 1v1?

Used to be we could solo these guys, but now they can wear DPS Gear & USE THEIR DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS to outlast us.

How is this suppose to be balanced?

Sents | Maras can't wear Tanking gear.

My understanding was they received a nerf in the last patch but they're still topping the leader boards at the end of a PVP match.

Further, on the fleet ppl call for skrankers for ops PVE (they have the DPS & the taunt)

Interested in feedback from the community regarding how to manage these Skrankers 1v1.

Also interested in what the devs are saying about this.
(Have you heard anything ?)

Cheers.
What is a "skranker"?

Are you talking about skank tanks?
Or saying sents are OP?

Assuming skank tanks:
1. Tank PTs had their dps gutted to the point where, despite thr increase to aggro generation, they still do less aggro. Guardians less so because WE DID LESS DAMAGE TO BEGIN WITH. Maybe if the tank is doing more damage than you:
A. You are dying more than the tank, thus he has more damage overall, since dps on wz boards is damage done / total time.
B. you were being focused as a threat to the enemy team and thus died too much to pull effective damage.
C. it is perfectly feasible that someone is simply a bad dps who cannot outdamage a tank.

I have little sympathy for the 1v1 comment. Tanking is a separate role. Using dps gear takes place on tanks because ACTUAL TANK GEAR IS USELESS IN PVP. Thus, we run the stats that do something for us. Do you think you should be anle to 1v1 a healer? (The answer is no, you shouldn't)

The nerf to tank damage merely proved that its a pointless and stupid thing to do at best, and counterproductive at worst.

What people are asking for on fleet for SM ops is not a skank. I ask for 1 tank and 1 dps with taunt because group finder requires 2 tanks when most sm ops can be accomplished efrectively with 1. If i could queue 5 sentinels i would. Unfortunately, gf says i meed 2 tanks, even for kp sm.

What we have heard from the devs is that "fixing' the tank gear issue (its working as intended, but sucks, thus the quotes) is am expansion level problem. Thus skanks will he around until the next expansion AT THE SOONEST.

Meanwhile mara is in a perfectly good position for pvp, and the top melee dps spec for pvp if you play concentration. Go enjoy rolling all the dps PTs, guardians, and sorcs you want.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
05.31.2018 , 08:07 AM | #3
Imo this post has an issue to begin with.

"I can't solo a skank anymore"

Well you shouldn't be able to in the first place. The point of a skank is that they are OP to begin with, because of the dps gear they use. If you wanna blame their existence, fine, everybody can agree that they shouldn't exist.

However, complaining because you can't kill them anymore is an indication of how Mara/Sent was stupidly powerfull before. Skanks were far more superior than most class until before and still are up to a certain limit. Sents were able to top that because of the pre-nerf Ruthless Aggressor, snipers can still top them if they are good enough... Because snipers are OP since 5.0 too, don't forget that.
Now that Mara have been tuned for the rest of the game, the only issues we're still having are skanks (who shouldn't exist in the first place) as well as snipers who could use a little tweak or two to be fine.

Don't get me wrong dude, but even by looking at the ranked leaderboard you can see there is an issue when Marauders dominate Ranked for two whole seasons. Afaik there is literally nobody who's been able to reach gold tier in S8 by playing a dps PT or a dps Sin. Marauder tho ? There is way too much for it to be somewhat of an achievement.
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WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
05.31.2018 , 08:08 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Ellsiera View Post
Can you Sents | Maras solo a skranker 1v1?

Used to be we could solo these guys, but now they can wear DPS Gear & USE THEIR DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS to outlast us.

How is this suppose to be balanced?

Sents | Maras can't wear Tanking gear.

My understanding was they received a nerf in the last patch but they're still topping the leader boards at the end of a PVP match.

Further, on the fleet ppl call for skrankers for ops PVE (they have the DPS & the taunt)

Interested in feedback from the community regarding how to manage these Skrankers 1v1.

Also interested in what the devs are saying about this.
(Have you heard anything ?)

Cheers.
A marauder certainly has the potential to beat a Skank 1v1, Fury being your best bet for that job. Fury is very strong right now and is top teir. Assassin tanks are stealth classes at the same time and a stealth class with strong CCs vs. a non stealth class will always have an inate adavantage, which makes perfect sense 1v1. They can see you, you can't see them, they can disengage when they need to, you can't.

Generally speaking, possible to beat skanks? Of course, thats true of any class/spec combination. It's simply a question of how likely it is.

Skill is always telling, and the bigger the skill difference between the combatants the less the spec/class factors dictate to the outcome.

While tanks did recently recieve a nerf it was only to it's damage, and being that that's not their job as a tank, I don't see it as all that relivant in PVP [In PVE? Yes, much more so]. Even with the nerf to their damage, skank tanks are still doing boatloads more damage than a tank spec should be capable of.

Skanks are walking trinties. They have good DPS, tank like defenses as PVP goes [and protection], and they can heal a considerable amount, especially Juggs who got a buff and now have a second life.

Spec wise, Fury is the strongest. Anni and Carnage have been nerfed multiple times this meta [5.x] and it shows. Anni is still decent, but weaker than it has been and Carnage has been eviserated by nerf after nerf [most nerfed spec in the game through 5.x] and has even had it's play style change. Their DPS is deplorable. They literally have the worst DPS of any melee DPS spec in the game. A pure DPS class, no heals, no anti CC measures, worst dps. It is the 'purest' DPS spec in the game, literally it's all they can do, they should be the best ar it, but they are worst at it now. That isn't to say you can't make it work, every spec in the game is viable in the hands of someone who is skilled with the spec. In fact, I play Carnage [which I have been playing for the last 6 years]. You can make it work, but its still crap compared to other DPS specs and honestly, the only reason I think that I do okay with it is because I'm a one trick poney, its all I play. All one needs do is take an accounting of the number of Carnage Marauders they see running around at end game, it's its current state of suck is easy to see.

I would be better off switching to Fury like all the other FOTMers, but that's not me. Besides, someone has to remind people that Marauders still have three specs. I am the Carnage poster boy, so I endure =p - I have seen a few other Carnage marauders who do well, but it's very few. Simply put, Fury is better in every single way and has much higher DPS.

Don't even bother trying to join a Progression raid team as Carnage unless the team leader is a friend or someone you have sex with. No real progression raid team would take a Carnage marauder in their current state. If they do, that's not a team you want to be a part of as they don't take the progression seriously than. Carnage is nothing short of liability in it's current state, and you are literally talking about 600-700+ DPS difffence between Carnage and Fury. That tanks have had their DPS lowered as well, that only makes the situation worse. I was a HM/NiM progression raider up until 5.0, and it's why I am no longer one. There is simply no reason to take a Carnage mara over a Fury Mara, as Fury does everything better and not by a small margin.

There will always be 1%ers who make crap look like gold, but, unless you are one of them, people are going to wonder where that smell is coming from.

This is the current DPS rank chart of all the DPS specs, as up to date as we have [and it does update regularly] - http://parsely.io/parser/stats.

It isn't an issue of whether or not DPS specs do more DPS than skanks, they do [at least the should, skill can effect this of course], it's the comination of good DPS, very strong defenses, and heals and a ton of CC effects of course. The nerfs to tank have no lessoned the amount of skanks, it's increased the amount of skanks.

In PVE progression raiding [Hm/NiM] you shouldn't be seeing any skank tanks. They are subpar tanks in PVE and any progression team worth their salt will not have a skank tank tanking for them. If they do, that's another team you don't want to be a part of.

Skanks might not be the best DPS, the best Tank, the best healer, but, what sets them apart is that they are doing all three at the same time and that breaks trinity.

"Jack of all trades, master of none".

Marauders can be very strong, but they have an Achilles heel, they have no heals. They can't win battles of attrition and pretty much everyone they are fighting with have heals and that matters at times [like if you don't have a healer on your team]. Don't let anyone tell you differently or say that Marauders have godly DCDs, the DCDs are very good and they are also very fleeting and you are going to be spending like 65% of the time of your average legnth WZ without an active DCD due to uptime vs. cooldowns. With no heals to back them up thats a very serious liability at times. That's less the case in arenas because Arenas don't last as long and so cooldown times on DCDs is less of any issue.

Don't let anyone tell you that either Anni or Carnage is a better choice than Fury in doing any content in this game. Viable? Yes. Good? Sometimes. Can compete with Fury pound for pound? No chance. [all things being equal]. But, if you like a challenge and you like to try and push the envelope and you don't want to follow the rest of the herd, and you want to earn your keep, go Carnage or Annihilation like real men do[ =p]. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. A Lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of sheep.

If you are looking for balanced you couldn't have picked a worse place to look for it. 5.x is beyond repair. [Mercs, Snipers and Fury Marauders own this meta] Only 6.0 stands a chance of finding it again.

Hope this helps some. It's still a great game. Best of Luck to you.

P.S. Don't expect to get agreement on this subject, you won't. Skankers see it one way, Maras another. I may not love the skank tank situation in principle, but at least they are melee and all the limitations that come with it and that effects them as much as us and I would never advocate for any changes to a tank specs tanking skills [like limitations/nerfs to guard] because that would effect true tanks as much as skanks and that would not be fair. Skanks aren't the enemy in terms of balance currently, Mercs and Snipers are.
~ I am Grim.


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
05.31.2018 , 08:21 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
Imo this post has an issue to begin with.

"I can't solo a skank anymore"

Well you shouldn't be able to in the first place. The point of a skank is that they are OP to begin with, because of the dps gear they use. If you wanna blame their existence, fine, everybody can agree that they shouldn't exist.

However, complaining because you can't kill them anymore is an indication of how Mara/Sent was stupidly powerfull before. Skanks were far more superior than most class until before and still are up to a certain limit. Sents were able to top that because of the pre-nerf Ruthless Aggressor, snipers can still top them if they are good enough... Because snipers are OP since 5.0 too, don't forget that.
Now that Mara have been tuned for the rest of the game, the only issues we're still having are skanks (who shouldn't exist in the first place) as well as snipers who could use a little tweak or two to be fine.

Don't get me wrong dude, but even by looking at the ranked leaderboard you can see there is an issue when Marauders dominate Ranked for two whole seasons. Afaik there is literally nobody who's been able to reach gold tier in S8 by playing a dps PT or a dps Sin. Marauder tho ? There is way too much for it to be somewhat of an achievement.
You raise two very good points and I do agree with one of them.

1v1ing a tank, or a healer, shouldn't be easy for a DPS and really they shouldn't expect to. 1 DPS being a healer cannot be a sustainable situation for healers. They need to be able to withstand a DPS going nuts on them or they cannot do their jobs. And while I agree that it shouldn't be easy to beat a tank, a skank tank ostensibly shouldn't have as good as defense as a real tank. A real tank should be able to withstand a 1v1 with a DPS, but a skank tank shouldn't IMO.

Where I disagree with you [and this isn't a disgreement with 'you', merely the state of Ranked] is in looking at ranked for any other purpose than for proof of all the cheating, exploits, backfilling and wintrading. If ranked were a measure of skill, people wouldn't be cheating every three seconds. You don't find that in progression raiding because people who want to be "Elite" are not elite if they need to cheat in the first place. And let's face it, ranked is just an arena. Ranked is also the least played end game content and is only a very small percent of the overall player base. Ranks glory days are far behind it now thanks to all the e-pen. It's unfortunate was has become of Ranked, it really is, and I do feel bad for all those legitmate players who care for it but can't get a fair shake at it, and there plenty of legitmate players in Ranked, unfortunately there are also plenty of cheaters to null and void them.

Additionally, say Fury Mara, he might not know the difference.
~ I am Grim.


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
05.31.2018 , 08:41 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
1v1ing a tank, or a healer, shouldn't be easy for a DPS and really they shouldn't expect to. 1 DPS being a healer cannot be a sustainable situation for healers. They need to be able to withstand a DPS going nuts on them or they cannot do their jobs. And while I agree that it shouldn't be easy to beat a tank, a skank tank ostensibly shouldn't have as good as defense as a real tank. A real tank should be able to withstand a 1v1 with a DPS, but a skank tank shouldn't IMO.
The fundamental issue is: skanking is currently the optimal way to tank pvp. Outside of philosophy (not even theory) there is NO reason to run def/shield/absorb for pvp.

The devs themselves have admitted this, dismissing it as an "expansion level issue."

Hypothetically speaking: lets pretend for a moment that alac/crit/accuracy did not help you do more damage, but tanking stats did help your survival. How would you gear? At this point using the hypothetically useless stats would be pointless and sub-optimal.

This is where tanks stand: the gear we are supposed to use for pvp is next to pointless. Massive yellow damage burst crits will hit me regardless of how i gear, ergo i gear for high endurance and throw in dps stats rather than ones that don't help me.

Until they fix the gearing issue: A tank is more of a playstyle than gear. 99% of skanks are stupid morons who jumped onto the nonsensical "tank spec does more dps than vigi/other dps spec" bandwagon, just as 99% of fury maras are crappy FOTM rollers. I've shared my little "it takes 600k damage on average to kill me once" pic twice now.

Tldr: until they "fix" tank stats, a skank is a pvp tank. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ellsiera's Avatar


Ellsiera
05.31.2018 , 03:06 PM | #7
Yeah ok

I've read the posts & thank you all for taking the time to respond.

Thus far no one has really addressed the "how" mara | sent goes about winning a 1v1 against a skrank.

In fact the intimation based on the responses seems to be that you really can't or shouldn't be able to 1v1 a skraner.

Which brings up the question of game balance.

How is sent | mara considered a dps class when they can be out dps'ed by a Tank in dps gear?

Seems to me this becomes a question of poor game design.

When Tanks can step out of their roles to become the superior & more versatile class Sents | Maras become second tier.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
05.31.2018 , 03:27 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Ellsiera View Post
Yeah ok

I've read the posts & thank you all for taking the time to respond.

Thus far no one has really addressed the "how" mara | sent goes about winning a 1v1 against a skrank.

In fact the intimation based on the responses seems to be that you really can't or shouldn't be able to 1v1 a skraner.
You can't 1v1 a healer, you shouldnt be able to 1v1 a tank. Simple enough.

Quote:
Which brings up the question of game balance.

How is sent | mara considered a dps class when they can be out dps'ed by a Tank in dps gear?
I addressed this above.

Damage has no consideration of how much time you spend in combat, as computed by the board. My scoundrel healing buddy has done more damage than some people, doesnt make scoundrel healer dps op.

1. Maybe the tank was in combat the entire match and you were not, especially if the tank was in a mass aoe situation where cleaves could be used extensively.
2. Maybe you were doing enough damage to be a threat, and thus got focused to death a lot, thus hurting your damage.
3. Maybe the dps on your team is just bad and cant outdamage a tank.

Quote:
Seems to me this becomes a question of poor game design.

When Tanks can step out of their roles to become the superior & more versatile class Sents | Maras become second tier.
I will lean to grims point and say this: anyone thinking a fury mara is second tier to a skank, cant play it well. The reason tanks run skanks is because tank gear does nothing to help survival in pvp.

And i will include my pic of the 3 mill damage taken again. Because it helps my point. I stayed alive under the focus i was eating far longer than any dps class could or should have.

Make tank gear help me and ill run it. In the meantime skanking is the optimal way to gear a pvp tank.

Note also that in this match i was having to focus on staying alive, and keeping my healer alive, so i hardly topped the damage board.

https://m.imgur.com/a/IkEl4u3

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
05.31.2018 , 06:07 PM | #9
Make tank gear great again!
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
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DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
06.01.2018 , 04:31 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ellsiera View Post
Can you Sents | Maras solo a skranker 1v1?

Used to be we could solo these guys, but now they can wear DPS Gear & USE THEIR DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS to outlast us.

How is this suppose to be balanced?

Sents | Maras can't wear Tanking gear.

My understanding was they received a nerf in the last patch but they're still topping the leader boards at the end of a PVP match.

Further, on the fleet ppl call for skrankers for ops PVE (they have the DPS & the taunt)

Interested in feedback from the community regarding how to manage these Skrankers 1v1.

Also interested in what the devs are saying about this.
(Have you heard anything ?)

Cheers.
You will never beat a good skank on your mara, no matter what spec you are.... They will cut your damage into half and will always outlast you. They are tanks.. after all.

Jugg skank is your biggest nightmare at the moment because once he wears you down and starts using his heals, you are dead very soon.