(...there even was a remake of a vanilla one)

With game update 2.0 - Raise of the Hutt Cartel (2013), if I remember correctly, the level cap was risen from 50-55. Operatives got the (t)rolling, bubbles for the casters and what not was added to the complete list of class abilities. I'd say the early fifties marks the toddler timeline and the classic warzones of this timeline are representing the toddler playgrounds.

Now, in the 70's, we see unstoppable forces scoring goals within seconds. Mission Objectives that can rarely be completed. Tiny game areas stuffed with matured superheroes: They have grown up, became bigger, stronger and faster. But warzone? Warzone never changes...

Nowadays a classic warzone match can be really boring and predictable within seconds - definitely not fun to play.

That is a real bummer, as, besides some imbalance, the class designer successfully managed the horrible act of balancing all classes for pve & pvp and the core element of pvp works: It is an awesome dance of blades and blasters.

Now it is time for the level/world designer as classes are geared for epic pve battles and geared for EPIC WARZONES too.

Well, classes have outgrown the maps because they have all these god mode defenses now and killing something takes like forever and the healers kinda ruin PVP too...

I mean they have god mode dcds and Bioware allows 2, 3 heals in one team and 1 or 0 in the other which turns the warzone into a complete joke.

Also, you have the skill level people have nowdays which let's face it...has declined a lot. We have a lot of people that have no clue what to do and don't care.

Back in the day we had better communication(WRITTEN ONE) in a game and better coordination also. Nowdays it's just about getting a pop, entering and then running around like a headless chicken and dying. Leaving nodes unguarded after caping them, instant dying under focus, heck.. some people cannot break 1 million damage.

The list is long, but there is nothing that devs can do. It's what we have, let's enjoy it while we have this game, or try to enjoy it.

I mean lets look back: The game is out since 2011 and the classes were buffed and nerfed all over again and we still have 0 class balance, WHICH means that class balance is impossible.. and the sooner you forget about it, the better it will be for you.

Well, classes have outgrown the maps because they have all these god mode defenses now and killing something takes like forever and the healers kinda ruin PVP too...

 

I mean they have god mode dcds and Bioware allows 2, 3 heals in one team and 1 or 0 in the other which turns the warzone into a complete joke.

These reasons here are also why many players prefer the lower tier brackets of pvp.

Ironically the lower levels can be more fun because all classes are viable, and all classes are killable.

Sometimes simplicity is better, and what has happened to swtor pvp is tons of ability bloat.

(...there even was a remake of a vanilla one)

 

With game update 2.0 - Raise of the Hutt Cartel (2013), if I remember correctly, the level cap was risen from 50-55. Operatives got the (t)rolling, bubbles for the casters and what not was added to the complete list of class abilities. I'd say the early fifties marks the toddler timeline and the classic warzones of this timeline are representing the toddler playgrounds.

 

Now, in the 70's, we see unstoppable forces scoring goals within seconds. Mission Objectives that can rarely be completed. Tiny game areas stuffed with matured superheroes: They have grown up, became bigger, stronger and faster. But warzone? Warzone never changes...

 

Nowadays a classic warzone match can be really boring and predictable within seconds - definitely not fun to play.

 

That is a real bummer, as, besides some imbalance, the class designer successfully managed the horrible act of balancing all classes for pve & pvp and the core element of pvp works: It is an awesome dance of blades and blasters.

 

Now it is time for the level/world designer as classes are geared for epic pve battles and geared for EPIC WARZONES too.

Not only that, but there is now a massive discrepancy in skill lvl and a big gear gap. If you ha e the best gear and some skill, you can walk to the HB line all by yourself with 8 noobs attacking you.

There has always been skill discrepancy, but now there are more bad players than average and the good players have become gods

(...there even was a remake of a vanilla one)

 

With game update 2.0 - Raise of the Hutt Cartel (2013), if I remember correctly, the level cap was risen from 50-55. Operatives got the (t)rolling, bubbles for the casters and what not was added to the complete list of class abilities. I'd say the early fifties marks the toddler timeline and the classic warzones of this timeline are representing the toddler playgrounds.

 

Now, in the 70's, we see unstoppable forces scoring goals within seconds. Mission Objectives that can rarely be completed. Tiny game areas stuffed with matured superheroes: They have grown up, became bigger, stronger and faster. But warzone? Warzone never changes...

 

Nowadays a classic warzone match can be really boring and predictable within seconds - definitely not fun to play.

 

That is a real bummer, as, besides some imbalance, the class designer successfully managed the horrible act of balancing all classes for pve & pvp and the core element of pvp works: It is an awesome dance of blades and blasters.

 

Now it is time for the level/world designer as classes are geared for epic pve battles and geared for EPIC WARZONES too.

Totaly agree.

Very true, they should adjust a few mechanics to adapt the difficulty of the objectives to the current player capabilities (mostly noticeable in huttball, but oddly enough in Odessen too)

Let's give BW simple, specific tasks, to begin with:

There are areas in huttball in which leap was disabled because you eventually realised how easy it is to get the ball up like that, for starters, maybe, disable operative/sniper rolls there too?

For Odessen, Force barriered sorcs shouldn't be counted as guarding a node (just like stealth players don't), these 10 "there-is-nothing-you-can-do-about-it" seconds that 1 man can force on 8 people focusing him count a lot, and now consider 2 sorcs doing so in turns...

Anyone got more specific points to address?

Very true, they should adjust a few mechanics to adapt the difficulty of the objectives to the current player capabilities (mostly noticeable in huttball, but oddly enough in Odessen too)

Let's give BW simple, specific tasks, to begin with:

There are areas in huttball in which leap was disabled because you eventually realised how easy it is to get the ball up like that, for starters, maybe, disable operative/sniper rolls there too?

For Odessen, Force barriered sorcs shouldn't be counted as guarding a node (just like stealth players don't), these 10 "there-is-nothing-you-can-do-about-it" seconds that 1 man can force on 8 people focusing him count a lot, and now consider 2 sorcs doing so in turns...

 

Anyone got more specific points to address?

I think a new approach of warzone design is essential. But maybe SWTOR is not allowed to become a competitor to other SW multiplayer games published by EA... what was its name... battlefront

If we are being truthful here, I think the only way to "fix" the trouble of class abilities overpowering the old designs of the wzs is to scrub the classes all of their abilities and start over.

Yeah, they'd never do this. I would be fine if they did. I resent the bloat of CC, CC-resistant abilities, the speed boosts, portals, etc.

There are far too many complexities for my taste regarding all of the CC and anti-CC buffs you have to navigate around in PVP to fight others.

I don't know, perhaps I am just too old and simple a player for this newer meta, but I find it tedious and a drag having to try to manage ALL the different CCs of other classes to maximize my own performance against them.

I just think sometimes it's possible to have too much of a good thing, and this is the case with SWTOR PVP regarding all the CC, anti-CC, speed boosts they got in the game now.

Just curious out of you younger PVPers, do you guys enjoy all of the CC, anti-CC, portals, speed boosts in PVP and feel it makes it more interesting and fun, or do you guys find it to be a total bloat that doesn't add fun but only tedious complexity?

If we are being truthful here, I think the only way to "fix" the trouble of class abilities overpowering the old designs of the wzs is to scrub the classes all of their abilities and start over.

 

Yeah, they'd never do this. I would be fine if they did. I resent the bloat of CC, CC-resistant abilities, the speed boosts, portals, etc.

 

There are far too many complexities for my taste regarding all of the CC and anti-CC buffs you have to navigate around in PVP to fight others.

 

I don't know, perhaps I am just too old and simple a player for this newer meta, but I find it tedious and a drag having to try to manage ALL the different CCs of other classes to maximize my own performance against them.

 

I just think sometimes it's possible to have too much of a good thing, and this is the case with SWTOR PVP regarding all the CC, anti-CC, speed boosts they got in the game now.

 

Just curious out of you younger PVPers, do you guys enjoy all of the CC, anti-CC, portals, speed boosts in PVP and feel it makes it more interesting and fun, or do you guys find it to be a total bloat that doesn't add fun but only tedious complexity?

I am a firm believer if you do not take everything that spec brings to the table, class balance is an impossibility. Things sometimes have after effects that might not on the surface seem directly related by the by-products have having rebound effects.

Number of off role abilities is a particularly important aspect. For example [ and no I'm not saying Operatives should be nerfed, Mercs and Snipers remain my only point of contention]

Perma-stealth

Healing

Off-healing

Cleansing

Bringing people back from the friggen dead in comat [ that was awfully nice of the Gods to lend them that small part of their divinity]

Compare that to Assassin

Quard

Taunt

Perma stealth

Compare that to Marauder

<crickets>

A lot of these things play a fairly large role in PVP. Taunting by far the most egregious among them. Heals matter a shiz ton in PVP [ but play very little part in PVE as you will always have a healer on the team].

Now I'm not saying they should lose these things, I'm just saying that you have to bring everything that they do bring to the table into consideration in class balancing.

Nothing will save this meta with regard to class balance. That ship has sailed and like most of us thought at the beginning when they revealed their strategy, it's only gotten worse. The strategy itself is inherently flawed and cannot lead to class balance.

Hybrid classes, pure DPS classes, stealth classes, these terms were made as a measure of distinction among the classes, not because the devs were bored and decided to makes some names up for different categories of classes that had no difference in the first place.

Jack of all trades, master of none as the figure of speech goes. If you can DPS, Heal, and protect all at the same time, that has to matter as opposed to other classes that can do only 2 of those things or one even. That's why people call some of the classes/specs 'walking trinities'. The more specialized the role, the better it should be at that role.

Heal ratio to DPS is another important consideration. The more it can heal the less damage it should do. Someone with self heals fighting someone with out them shouldn't have better DPS than them as well. Survivability = uptime, uptime = greater damage out put.

We cannot fix things with the present methodolgy that BW has laid out with regard to class balance. A large portion of players are very unhappy with the class balance and every time a new patch comes along people start to cringe in fear and wonder what next spec is about to be eviscerated.

It's too far gone at this point, they should just wait for 6.0 to form a new order of DPS and other considerations like we find at the start of every new meta. I would be very happy if they would go back to earlier methods of class balancing. I'm hopeful that 6.0 might bring about some of these necessary changes. What we have right now has lost us so many players. If something is broken, you fix it.

I agree 100% with you on the CC thingy. I cannot believe the sheer amount of CCs that get thrown around on a virtually constant basis. My frustration with which caused me to need a new computer when I got pissed with the incessant slow bombs and firing range lines or mercs and snipers.

It detracts for the enjoyment immensely in my opinion and it is hard for me to imagine how anyone would not feel its way to much. Add to that some classes with CC immunties and a shiz ton of CCs to throw around, and that just once again leads us into another area of consideration in class balancing. Getting stunlocked to death is something that should never be possible in PVP and yet it happens. CCs in many ways comes down to 'haves and have nots'. No class or spec is innately more deserving of anti-cc abilities and gives those with it a very real advantage over those that don't. CC packages are an intricle part of any class and thus need consideration in the balancing of the classes IMO.

Than again I'm an idiot so you really can't go by me =p

I am a firm believer if you do not take everything that spec brings to the table, class balance is an impossibility. Things sometimes have after effects that might not on the surface seem directly related by the by-products have having rebound effects.

 

Number of off role abilities is a particularly important aspect. For example [ and no I'm not saying Operatives should be nerfed, Mercs and Snipers remain my only point of contention]

 

Perma-stealth

Healing

Off-healing

Cleansing

Bringing people back from the friggen dead in comat [ that was awfully nice of the Gods to lend them that small part of their divinity]

 

Compare that to Assassin

 

Quard

Taunt

Perma stealth

 

Compare that to Marauder

<crickets>

 

A lot of these things play a fairly large role in PVP. Taunting by far the most egregious among them. Heals matter a shiz ton in PVP [ but play very little part in PVE as you will always have a healer on the team].

 

Now I'm not saying they should lose these things, I'm just saying that you have to bring everything that they do bring to the table into consideration in class balancing.

 

Nothing will save this meta with regard to class balance. That ship has sailed and like most of us thought at the beginning when they revealed their strategy, it's only gotten worse. The strategy itself is inherently flawed and cannot lead to class balance.

 

Hybrid classes, pure DPS classes, stealth classes, these terms were made as a measure of distinction among the classes, not because the devs were bored and decided to makes some names up for different categories of classes that had no difference in the first place.

 

Jack of all trades, master of none as the figure of speech goes. If you can DPS, Heal, and protect all at the same time, that has to matter as opposed to other classes that can do only 2 of those things or one even. That's why people call some of the classes/specs 'walking trinities'. The more specialized the role, the better it should be at that role.

 

Heal ratio to DPS is another important consideration. The more it can heal the less damage it should do. Someone with self heals fighting someone with out them shouldn't have better DPS than them as well. Survivability = uptime, uptime = greater damage out put.

 

We cannot fix things with the present methodolgy that BW has laid out with regard to class balance. A large portion of players are very unhappy with the class balance and every time a new patch comes along people start to cringe in fear and wonder what next spec is about to be eviscerated.

 

It's too far gone at this point, they should just wait for 6.0 to form a new order of DPS and other considerations like we find at the start of every new meta. I would be very happy if they would go back to earlier methods of class balancing. I'm hopeful that 6.0 might bring about some of these necessary changes. What we have right now has lost us so many players. If something is broken, you fix it.

 

I agree 100% with you on the CC thingy. I cannot believe the sheer amount of CCs that get thrown around on a virtually constant basis. My frustration with which caused me to need a new computer when I got pissed with the incessant slow bombs and firing range lines or mercs and snipers.

 

It detracts for the enjoyment immensely in my opinion and it is hard for me to imagine how anyone would not feel its way to much. Add to that some classes with CC immunties and a shiz ton of CCs to throw around, and that just once again leads us into another area of consideration in class balancing. Getting stunlocked to death is something that should never be possible in PVP and yet it happens. CCs in many ways comes down to 'haves and have nots'. No class or spec is innately more deserving of anti-cc abilities and gives those with it a very real advantage over those that don't. CC packages are an intricle part of any class and thus need consideration in the balancing of the classes IMO.

 

Than again I'm an idiot so you really can't go by me =p

Well said, but this is a single player story based game with MMO elements and classes aren't designed at all for PVP....

They will never balance anything like they should because that woudl always ruin PVE.

Until they are unable to separate the way abilities work in PVP/PVE, we will never have class balance.

Also, at this point one should just enjoy the game as much as he can because Bioware always destroys a spec with their class balance changes.

Annihilation got nerfed when it wasn't supposed to and sin dps got the nerf stick as well when it shouldn't have and in the MEANTIME MERCS still have 7 lives and endless self heals at their disposal.

You see ? Developers don't play the game and they probably balance around some flawed data that has nothing to do with in game reality. I doubt they even properly test what they "balance" because it was blatantly obvious to any half brained guy after playing like 2 warzones that certain classes have 10 lives compared to others and a ton of DPS which will lead to... frustration.