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Please make Rage more durable


Neulwen's Avatar


Neulwen
02.25.2018 , 02:22 PM | #1
I recently returned to the game, and am saddened to see that Rage, my most beloved spec in the game, is still poor. (Talking from a PvP perspective.) Almost no one plays it. Even I have swapped to Veng now.

Rage has less DPS, looking at parses, and less dmg reduction than Veng. Shii-Cho is supposed to be a balanced form, while Shien aggressive, so it sounds like Rage ought to be a bit more survivable of the two. But Rage has 3 % passive dmg reduction and 5 % for 6 s max every 8 s, while Veng has 5 % passive, 15 % during Endure Pain, and 20 % for 4 s after leap. Unless I'm missing something, in total multiplied by uptime that is 6.75 % dmg reduction for Rage, and 12.83 % for Veng, and that assumes no Alacrity, no Warmonger, and relies on Rage having to be in a position to deal dmg. So in reality Veng's DR will be even higher and Rage's will be lower, on average.

And that's just comparing it to Vengeance, which is also not the best spec in the game.

How is this right? Doesn't Rage deserve more survivability? This topic has been posted about before, but since it still hasn't been improved, I'm trying again. I've heard rumours that no balancing is planned until the next expansion, in a year? That is disheartening, if true. Please give Rage more survivability.
The electrons are singing.

memerobot's Avatar


memerobot
02.26.2018 , 02:38 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Neulwen View Post
I recently returned to the game, and am saddened to see that Rage, my most beloved spec in the game, is still poor. (Talking from a PvP perspective.) Almost no one plays it. Even I have swapped to Veng now.

Rage has less DPS, looking at parses, and less dmg reduction than Veng. Shii-Cho is supposed to be a balanced form, while Shien aggressive, so it sounds like Rage ought to be a bit more survivable of the two. But Rage has 3 % passive dmg reduction and 5 % for 6 s max every 8 s, while Veng has 5 % passive, 15 % during Endure Pain, and 20 % for 4 s after leap. Unless I'm missing something, in total multiplied by uptime that is 6.75 % dmg reduction for Rage, and 12.83 % for Veng, and that assumes no Alacrity, no Warmonger, and relies on Rage having to be in a position to deal dmg. So in reality Veng's DR will be even higher and Rage's will be lower, on average.

And that's just comparing it to Vengeance, which is also not the best spec in the game.
The survivability issue is from the class itself, except tank. Even with the average 12.83% DR it still loses a lot. Why? The rotation of Veng doesn't make you go leap at all opportunities, plus its bad, unless some opponent is low health, because you have to reset the whole rotation from scratch while Rage pretty much can do that since the spec is based on being a frog and jump all around without the drawbacks of rotation reset.

Quote: Originally Posted by Neulwen View Post
How is this right? Doesn't Rage deserve more survivability? This topic has been posted about before, but since it still hasn't been improved, I'm trying again. I've heard rumours that no balancing is planned until the next expansion, in a year? That is disheartening, if true. Please give Rage more survivability.
You have a spec that can have auto crit in 3 attacks in an average of 6s, and those auto crits always go +20k <-> +25k. Veng can't do that. Its a trade between offensive and defensive capabilities.

Neulwen's Avatar


Neulwen
02.26.2018 , 03:48 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
The survivability issue is from the class itself, except tank.
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
Its a trade between offensive and defensive capabilities.
Yes, Veng also has poor survivability compared to other classes/specs, but, if it's a balanced trade off, how come I see almost no one playing Rage and a lot of people playing Veng? I strongly doubt it's because no one finds the spec fun.

Rage can jump around more and has more root counters, but Veng has passive higher movement speed and a CC immunity.

Rage has more on demand burst, but Veng still has overall higher DPS and better pressure/AoE damage.

Those are trade-offs, but I can't see the disparity in DR being justified.
The electrons are singing.

memerobot's Avatar


memerobot
02.26.2018 , 05:43 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Neulwen View Post
Yes, Veng also has poor survivability compared to other classes/specs, but, if it's a balanced trade off, how come I see almost no one playing Rage and a lot of people playing Veng? I strongly doubt it's because no one finds the spec fun.
The reasons, I think, for people going Veng over Rage are these:

1: Fury Marauder is a direct upgrade of Rage Juggernaut.
I mean, its not hard to see the huge amount of marauders using it right now, and it is ridiculously easier than Rage Jugg for sure, due to the constant 30 stack that you can build, enabling you to continue the attacks without ever stopping. If you added some perks that Fury has and added them to Rage, you'd see an overflow of them as well, over Veng.

2: Vengeance is considerably more stable and easier compared to Rage.
I might be wrong but It feels that way. Rage simply requires a much more careful management of the resources that you have to do attacks. And Veng, being a dot, does more damage, as well, specially when there's spread of the dots.


Quote: Originally Posted by Neulwen View Post
Rage can jump around more and has more root counters, but Veng has passive higher movement speed and a CC immunity.

Rage has more on demand burst, but Veng still has overall higher DPS and better pressure/AoE damage.

Those are trade-offs, but I can't see the disparity in DR being justified.
Well, just because there's not many people playing the spec, doesn't mean its bad. I am one of the very few that play Lethality while the huge majority plays Concealment, specially in PvP.
It is how well one plays it. Just because you see few people going Rage, it does not mean its bad.

Wanting to see the least used specs to be more used is always a thing that a player that plays with it wants but thing is when something is FOTM or "the way to go", it is hard to go against it.
Why? Simple reasons:

1: Less effort required in using them compared to others.
They simply perform much better when compared to the alternatives (example is 2 specs being equally hard but one has superior damage compared to the other) or do the same work with less dedication on it (example is two specs can do the same amount of damage but one of them is significantly harder than the other, thus you go for the easier one).
2: "Cheap tactics" (Merc defensives is an example, and no, I don't problems with them, I just think they are cheap ways of avoiding damage) or "Lower" skill gap (Arsenal Merc vs IO Merc, and yes, I think Arsenal is significantly easier than IO)
Enough to go against the "big" players. (I am probably writing the same as point 1 but I am trying to simplify here. Not sure)

For example, I already suggested to Bioware on changing Lethality spec so it becomes more appealing to the players yet nothing has been done so far either. People don't like Leth because:
1: It is dot-based, people rarely like dot;
2: It plays as a hit'n'run style and that isn't appealing to the big majority either (even though I don't play like that. I am rather aggressive with it, actually).
3: Concealment: Its more direct on the way it plays. Stabby-stab which is fun, with added thrilling that can dominate other players if played properly, thus feeling more rewarding.

Another example is this: I personally don't like Fury. Feels boring as hell and honestly doesn't feel like it has a high skill ceiling but people use it because it dishes out big damage for less work.
I personally go for Carnage and Annihilation since they are more fun, rarely used nowadays, (which bring people to be less prepared for them) and I feel like I play better in them. These 2 are absolute monsters in good hands, as well (not myself for sure but I've seen some players that simply eviscerate through everyone as if its nothing with the non-FOTM/"way to go" specs) even when compared to the current FOTM mara.

Anyway, in the end, if you ask me, Rage is ridiculously more dangerous to fight against compared to Veng, even if the second has better DR and damage.
Veng can't take advantage of the reduced DR from leaping all the time, which somewhat removes its purpose, unless you see the player running away just to leap back all the time, which goes againstthe purpose of dealing damage as a melee. Keeping out of range is just bad, unless you do like Mad Dash and leap back or you do the force push and leap again.
Endure pain is to use it as a defensive that needs careful thought to when to use it. Rage's 5% DR is rather spammable. 5% every raging burst of smash + 3% from the spec itself. You can have permanent 8% as so to speak, like Veng. It is something. Not that good but it is something.
Nevertheless, Rage was meant to be a more aggressive burst-damage spec and Veng is more of sustained-based damage. To keep that sustained damage, the spec receives DR to allow a longer life.

Neulwen's Avatar


Neulwen
02.28.2018 , 04:57 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
If you added some perks that Fury has and added them to Rage, you'd see an overflow of them as well, over Veng.
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
when something is FOTM or "the way to go", it is hard to go against it.
Why? Simple reasons:

1: Less effort required in using them compared to others.
They simply perform much better when compared to the alternatives (example is 2 specs being equally hard but one has superior damage compared to the other) or do the same work with less dedication on it (example is two specs can do the same amount of damage but one of them is significantly harder than the other, thus you go for the easier one).
But that's what I'm talking about. Specs performing significantly better/worse. I was pointing out that Rage deserves more survivability. But sure if we got CC immunity like Fury, that would improve us too. Though I'd rather not, as I think it's a bad system to tie CC immunity to a rotational ability. And that Fury talent is OP anyway. CC immunity on the first few sec of Endure Pain for example could be something.

I mean, Juggernauts are supposed to be durable.

Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
It is how well one plays it. Just because you see few people going Rage, it does not mean its bad.
Of course a well-played weaker spec will usually do better than a poorly played stronger spec (unless the discrepancy is huge), but we have to assume equal skill level when comparing.

I do totally fine as Rage, but I do feel quite squishy. It's all relative to other classes/specs.

(I swapped back to Rage again yesterday btw. As always I couldn't stay away.)

Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
Endure pain is to use it as a defensive that needs careful thought to when to use it.
Yes, and that's a 15% DR CD that Rage lacks. If Veng is under fire they can also mad dash away and jump back and get some DR, or just jump to another target, or push and jump. Yeh, the point of a DD is to deal dmg, but in PvP you can't deal dmg all the time, and usually you have to do what you can to survive. Veng just has more of those options than Rage.

Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
Nevertheless, Rage was meant to be a more aggressive burst-damage spec and Veng is more of sustained-based damage. To keep that sustained damage, the spec receives DR to allow a longer life.
You make some good points, but I'm still not entirely convinced that the current DR balance of the two specs is optimal.

Either way, I think we can agree that both Rage and Veng need buffs. (Or the OP classes/specs need nerfs.) I just don't really see people talking about Rage lately.
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KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
02.28.2018 , 08:21 AM | #6
I hate to say it but if you're jealous of vigi as a Guardian, you're jealous of the wrong spec. Look at your cousins the concentration sents. They do everything focus does, just better. That's probably the real reason behind the numbers: why play a focus guardian when you could be doing the same thing better as a concentration sent?

Neulwen's Avatar


Neulwen
02.28.2018 , 09:33 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I hate to say it but if you're jealous of vigi as a Guardian, you're jealous of the wrong spec. Look at your cousins the concentration sents. They do everything focus does, just better. That's probably the real reason behind the numbers: why play a focus guardian when you could be doing the same thing better as a concentration sent?
Well, I was comparing the two jugg/guardian DD specs. Fury seems OP right now, and I said that both Veng and Rage are relatively weak. But yes, the Fury situation is also a likely contributor for the low Rage playerbase. memerobot mentioned this too.
The electrons are singing.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
02.28.2018 , 03:26 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I hate to say it but if you're jealous of vigi as a Guardian, you're jealous of the wrong spec. Look at your cousins the concentration sents. They do everything focus does, just better. That's probably the real reason behind the numbers: why play a focus guardian when you could be doing the same thing better as a concentration sent?
I don't think it's healthy to compare other classes with Fury right now (except a select few i guess) on account of the fact that fury maras are pretty broken in pvp right now

memerobot's Avatar


memerobot
02.28.2018 , 03:33 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I don't think it's healthy to compare other classes with Fury right now (except a select few i guess) on account of the fact that fury maras are pretty broken in pvp right now
The spec works exactly the same, except its a down graded version since it has a much harder resource management and has no stun immunity. It still makes your point invalid :|

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
02.28.2018 , 05:04 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
The spec works exactly the same, except its a down graded version since it has a much harder resource management and has no stun immunity. It still makes your point invalid :|
I'm not sure what your point is? All I'm saying is if you're comparing any spec to fury, chances are that spec is going to look pretty bad, since you're comparing it to arguably the best melee spec in pvp right now