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PvP Tanking for Dummies (5.7)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
PvP Tanking for Dummies (5.7)

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
02.08.2018 , 12:05 PM | #11
Nice work!

Just a few comments on the assassin section, though:
  • Since this is a guide for dummies, you might want to mention how to use dark ward and how it works.
  • Versus a mob of heavy armors or tanks, you might prefer to use recklessness on a procced discharge instead of wither (because it bypasses armor and shield).
  • The opener seems to depend on shock proccing but the proc of shock is totally random (though lacks any rate limit. In other words, you might get 3 auto-crits in 6 gcds in a row, and you might get none.

More about the shock proc: the shock proc has a chance to happen in each strike of thrash separately (resulting in 0.51% chance to proc), but same goes for each target hit by lacerate. Therefore, combined with the fact that lacerate traumatizes all targets, then unless you are finishing someone off you probably better prefer lacerate over thrash (deals same damage, 1 more trauma, and same chance for shock proc). When fighting versus even more people, the shock has (1-0.7^n) chance to proc (n = number of attacked players). Here is a breakdown by number of targets: 3 targets = 0.657 chance. 4 = 0.7599 chance. 5 = 0.83193 chance. 6 = 0.882351 chance. 7 = 0.9156457 chance. 8 = 0.94235199 chance. Therefore above 3 targets I would suggest removing maul from the rotation and lacerating unless you have a better AoE, a shock or depredating volts. It is very likely shock will proc for each lacerate (worst case - lacerate again. Never was unlucky enough to lacerate 4 people twice without getting a proc) and don't forget that this proc resets the cooldown too.

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
02.08.2018 , 12:55 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DenariusJay View Post
I would like to know for sure about this, since I've always wondered for along time whether that 5% still worked out of guards initial damage redirection range. Like if I put guard on a player and he ends up going halfway across the map and I'm at the spawn, does the 5% still actually work? I remember combing websites and the forums a few years back and never finding an answer for this.
A good friend of mine told me that he remembers seeing a specific developer vod a while back which basically said that 5% only works in PvE and the 50% only works for PvP.

I have a lot of conflicting statements that it works and doesn't work. That's why today I am going to makes sure to thoroughly investigate and figure out if it's true or not.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
02.08.2018 , 01:23 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by DenariusJay View Post
I would like to know for sure about this, since I've always wondered for along time whether that 5% still worked out of guards initial damage redirection range. Like if I put guard on a player and he ends up going halfway across the map and I'm at the spawn, does the 5% still actually work? I remember combing websites and the forums a few years back and never finding an answer for this.
This thread is the best one on the topic I could find, it evens answers the question of whether taunt affects redirected damage. It is pretty old, but I don't think anything really changed in this department, so it should still hold up, although more testing is of course never a bad thing.

DenariusJay's Avatar


DenariusJay
02.08.2018 , 01:51 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
A good friend of mine told me that he remembers seeing a specific developer vod a while back which basically said that 5% only works in PvE and the 50% only works for PvP.

I have a lot of conflicting statements that it works and doesn't work. That's why today I am going to makes sure to thoroughly investigate and figure out if it's true or not.
Nice, keep us posted, really would like to know for an absolute certain xD thanks for the time you put in to test some of these mechanics.


Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
This thread is the best one on the topic I could find, it evens answers the question of whether taunt affects redirected damage. It is pretty old, but I don't think anything really changed in this department, so it should still hold up, although more testing is of course never a bad thing.
Nice find, didn't see that thread when I tried looking some years back. I will read that thread when I get home from work.
server: The Hot Prospect (10/4/2017 #NEVERFORGET)
Characters: Olivia Munn / Rashida Jones / Alicia Keys / Denzel Washington

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
02.08.2018 , 02:22 PM | #15
If anyone is interested in understand how mitigation works in this game, Mostly Harmless wrote a guide explaining it.

It's worth to quote him in this thread:

Quote:
How Mitigation Works

SW:ToR has formidably logical and sane damage type && mitigation system. All attacks are 2-type system, and every time something hits something 2-roll mitigation check occurs.

Attack type: can be either Melee/Ranged, or Force/Tech. While there are quite some differences in certain cases, from assassin tank point of view, melee and ranged attacks directed at us behave exactly same 100% of the time, obviously rifle shot is ranged and saber swing is melee but itís just flavour making no difference. Same with Force/Tech, essentially same thing. Difference between Melee/Ranged (MR) and Force/Tech (FT) is big, though. Simplifying, one can say that MR are ďweaponĒ attacks, while FT are ďspecialĒ attacks.

Damage type: can be either Kinetic/Energy (KE) or Internal/Elemental (IE). Behaviour same as with attack type: pairs are different, but just a matter of flavour within pairs.

FT attacks can be either KE, or IE, while MR attacks are always KE.

Two-roll mitigation system works like that:

First roll: check if attack hits. Accuracy vs Defense roll for MR attacks, Special accuracy vs Resist for FT attacks.
If you have any reflect effect, it happens after defense/resist check, only if attack passes. You cannot reflect what you have resisted, unless resist is caused by reflect ability.
Second roll: check if attack crits. Critical chance vs Shield chance (if Crit + Shield is over 100%, Shield is effectively reduced by their delta).
All multiplicative bonuses are applied at this step, all damage buffs and debuffs, armour, shield and crit multipliers.
On final step, absorb shields come in effect if any are present, further reducing damage.
NB: parry/dodge/deflect are all just flavour text notifying about successful (for tank) defense vs accuracy check.

NB: defense chance on MR attacks is ignored while you are incapacitated (any stun/sleep/etc effect), but chance to hit is still checked as accuracy vs 0% defense.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
02.08.2018 , 02:37 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
Nice work!

Just a few comments on the assassin section, though:
  • Since this is a guide for dummies, you might want to mention how to use dark ward and how it works.
  • Versus a mob of heavy armors or tanks, you might prefer to use recklessness on a procced discharge instead of wither (because it bypasses armor and shield).
  • The opener seems to depend on shock proccing but the proc of shock is totally random (though lacks any rate limit. In other words, you might get 3 auto-crits in 6 gcds in a row, and you might get none.

More about the shock proc: the shock proc has a chance to happen in each strike of thrash separately (resulting in 0.51% chance to proc), but same goes for each target hit by lacerate. Therefore, combined with the fact that lacerate traumatizes all targets, then unless you are finishing someone off you probably better prefer lacerate over thrash (deals same damage, 1 more trauma, and same chance for shock proc). When fighting versus even more people, the shock has (1-0.7^n) chance to proc (n = number of attacked players). Here is a breakdown by number of targets: 3 targets = 0.657 chance. 4 = 0.7599 chance. 5 = 0.83193 chance. 6 = 0.882351 chance. 7 = 0.9156457 chance. 8 = 0.94235199 chance. Therefore above 3 targets I would suggest removing maul from the rotation and lacerating unless you have a better AoE, a shock or depredating volts. It is very likely shock will proc for each lacerate (worst case - lacerate again. Never was unlucky enough to lacerate 4 people twice without getting a proc) and don't forget that this proc resets the cooldown too.
Your analysis is correct. I think though this comes down to a lot of situational awareness and thinking by the part of the assassin/shadow player. I'll have to figure out, if i even can, to try to simplifying this in a way a new player wouldn't be overwhelmed. This is getting really into the nitty-gritty of the rotation/priority system for min/maxing your dps. This also depends if the player is also choosing to wear the DPS set-bonus or the tanking one. Have to think about this.

Thank you for your feedback.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
02.08.2018 , 03:15 PM | #17
Thanks for this guide. I'm a dummy tank, so I find it useful.

Minor point, though. In your guide you have...

Itís easy to accidentally double-click Guard: activating Guard is on the GCD but deactivating it is off the GCD.

I'm not sure this is true. I have, many times on my DPS sin, struggled with trying to quickly deactivate a guard while at the same time continuing to attack. I always seem to have to wait for the GCD to get it to turn off. So I experimented with it today with my kinetic combat shadow (in spawn, waiting for matches to start... just in case it's different there or something).

It seems a bit weird. I would throw guard on someone. Then use whirling blow to activate the GCD. Then try to remove guard, and it would never work before the GCD with just a single activation. What it would do is seem to sort of cancel the GCD. That is, the little line that moves down your ability icons would vanish and they would all "turn on" again - but they were not actually ready. I could not, for example, use WB then try to remove guard and then use WB again really fast to get 2 WB before the GCD expired.

However if I did the remove guard twice in a row really fast, then it would work before the GCD. But not using it just once.

And I tried exactly what you warn about, tapping my keybind to turn ON guard, but tapping it twice really fast, so that if the 2nd one registered it would effectively deactivate guard. But it didn't do that. It always left the guard going.

Well, that's a lot of complication for a pretty minor point. But there it is anyway.
Ingracious, TheMightyQuinn, Rockin Robin - SS
Slippery When'wet - SF

Schoock's Avatar


Schoock
02.08.2018 , 03:29 PM | #18
First of all, nice guide Hottie (as usual from you ).

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
I'm not sure this is true. I have, many times on my DPS sin, struggled with trying to quickly deactivate a guard while at the same time continuing to attack. I always seem to have to wait for the GCD to get it to turn off. So I experimented with it today with my kinetic combat shadow (in spawn, waiting for matches to start... just in case it's different there or something).
I'm not sure if it's a bug or an intended GCD mechanic (I'd vote for the former, but who knows), but I've noticed this "cancel the GCD" effect in another case too. I think this would deserve some exploration, as it's a quite important thing when using off-the-GCD abilities.

And once again, nice guide.
Faction imbalance is the scientific term for saying player skills mature at a later age than that of the intended audience of a certain faction.

Ne'laa & other Mentally Challenged from The Red Eclipse

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
02.08.2018 , 04:57 PM | #19
After testing, 5% damage reduction even when your out of range does still apply to the player in PvP. We did a test on Ilum and in a warzone, it indeed works.

It's very odd it works like this. But since it's correct I will be updating my guide with the new information.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
02.08.2018 , 05:16 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
Thanks for this guide. I'm a dummy tank, so I find it useful.

Minor point, though. In your guide you have...

Itís easy to accidentally double-click Guard: activating Guard is on the GCD but deactivating it is off the GCD.

I'm not sure this is true. I have, many times on my DPS sin, struggled with trying to quickly deactivate a guard while at the same time continuing to attack. I always seem to have to wait for the GCD to get it to turn off. So I experimented with it today with my kinetic combat shadow (in spawn, waiting for matches to start... just in case it's different there or something).

It seems a bit weird. I would throw guard on someone. Then use whirling blow to activate the GCD. Then try to remove guard, and it would never work before the GCD with just a single activation. What it would do is seem to sort of cancel the GCD. That is, the little line that moves down your ability icons would vanish and they would all "turn on" again - but they were not actually ready. I could not, for example, use WB then try to remove guard and then use WB again really fast to get 2 WB before the GCD expired.

However if I did the remove guard twice in a row really fast, then it would work before the GCD. But not using it just once.

And I tried exactly what you warn about, tapping my keybind to turn ON guard, but tapping it twice really fast, so that if the 2nd one registered it would effectively deactivate guard. But it didn't do that. It always left the guard going.

Well, that's a lot of complication for a pretty minor point. But there it is anyway.
I just tested this with my friend. He guarded me, then he lacerated/removed guard in the next GCD at the same time. This was with a 0 ability action queue. It doesn't look like it's bugged to me.

I think there might be an issue with you queuing multiple abilities in the ability queue or not clicking fast enough?
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur