Before we even get started, I realize how horribly sideways this thread can go. I'm hopeful it'll stay at least marginally productive, but if not, I apologize in advance...

Recently returned player, interested in at least tooling around with PvP. There's just one problem:

I suck at PvP.

This has been a common theme in every game I've ever played. I manage to have fun with it anyway, but at best, my twitch is average, and I have a tendency to tunnel-vision. Usually, with a lot of experience and a very thorough knowledge of a specific class/build, I get competent, no better.

All of that said, I DO usually enjoy it. So, my question becomes, what are everybody's suggestions for approaching this without royally frustrating everybody around me at first, while I build up the repetitions I need to get competent?

Most helpful class/role? Modes to avoid? Tricks and tips?

Note that I'm not worried about hyper-aggressive kids yelling at me....I get that's going to happen to everybody. I'm just talking about the best way to avoid even the reasonable folks saying "dude, you seem nice, but I'd rather gargle razor blades than see you pop up on my team anymore".

Before we even get started, I realize how horribly sideways this thread can go. I'm hopeful it'll stay at least marginally productive, but if not, I apologize in advance...

 

Recently returned player, interested in at least tooling around with PvP. There's just one problem:

 

I suck at PvP.

 

This has been a common theme in every game I've ever played. I manage to have fun with it anyway, but at best, my twitch is average, and I have a tendency to tunnel-vision. Usually, with a lot of experience and a very thorough knowledge of a specific class/build, I get competent, no better.

 

All of that said, I DO usually enjoy it. So, my question becomes, what are everybody's suggestions for approaching this without royally frustrating everybody around me at first, while I build up the repetitions I need to get competent?

 

Most helpful class/role? Modes to avoid? Tricks and tips?

 

Note that I'm not worried about hyper-aggressive kids yelling at me....I get that's going to happen to everybody. I'm just talking about the best way to avoid even the reasonable folks saying "dude, you seem nice, but I'd rather gargle razor blades than see you pop up on my team anymore".

"Things to avoid" is the easy part :

• Don't be a healer, at least not for starters.
  
• Don't play Ranked.
  
• Avoid being the sole guard of an objective node. However, if you find yourself alone there, ask to be replaced but don't leave it alone. If attacked before you are replaced, call it out in chat before fighting.
  
• Don't attempt to be the sole captor of an objective node.
  
• If you attack an objective node with some people, don't break soft stuns with your attacks (soft stuns can be recognized usually as the target seeming to have a headache, being lifted in the air of spinning in a whirlwind. If you are unsure if the stun is soft or hard, don't attack)
  

Now map-specific:

• In huttball, try to avoid carrying the ball, but DON'T avoid attacking the enemy ball carrier (avoid using stuns that break on damage on him though. It is useless).
  
• In Odessen, Don't jump out of your controlled point to deal damage. You will lose it, they want you to do it.
  
• In arenas don't attack a guarded target (guard looks like some blue shield on the target, easy to recognize) unless this is the tactic you decided on (it usually is not), switch target when you see yours is guarded.
  

Now for some advice which is less "DON'T"s :

Start with a low level character, not a lvl 60+ token. PVP as you are leveling (though it doesn't have to be your sole source of XP). Read the abilities (from class-trainers) and passives (from discipline, gained every 4 levels from level 12 and onward) as you get them, rather than having to learn them all at once, which can be overwhelming and confusing [by the way, make sure you check the new active ability you get for LVLs 10, 26, 42 and 68. Some people miss those because they aren't bought from the trainer but just pop in your quickbars silently]. Once you reached LVL 70 and have all abilities, and probably have a good idea about what each does and what passives affect it because you learned it slowly and progressively, you can read a class guide which will tell you the best utilities to pick and the best rotation for your abilities. All advice will also feel much more logical and make more sense because you already have the basic knowledge from the leveling experience, so the things you read will kinda "fall into place" rather than sound like random "do this and that to be good".

Beleive me, doing so gives you an advantage other many players who use a lvl 60+ token for classes that they never played before. These tokens are meant for second times only, not firsts .

Further advice such as class picking is hard to say without knowing you better. Among the non-healers there is the choice between the ranged DPS, who cast and channel some abilities but have the potential to kite melee DPS and therefore have an advantage other them (because they can hit the melee while the melee can't him them due to distance). There are melee DPS who tend to have better bursts and have only instant abilities, so they the rotation feels kinda faster, and 2 of them can be stealth as well, but they are vulnerable to the kiting mentioned above. There are the tanks who are more defensive but deal less damage and also have the ability to taunt and guard, which can reduce the damage dealt to their friends (though they might be a bit complicated for beginners when playing arenas, and currently you can't avoid getting occasional arenas in the normal PVP queue).

For the tips and tricks thing, I think the PVP guide, pinned to the PVP section of these forums (just click "pvp" under the title of your thread then pick the top option) covers far more than the basic knowledge for this game. Basically, it covers so much that a totally new player could know better than the ordinary player who has been playing for a year, so you might want to give it a read if you have time (warning, it is long). I would suggest starting from anything not related to map-specific stuff (such as the resolve system that grants temporary stun immunity, everyone needs to know about that).

Hope all this helps, Good Luck!

It's helpful, thanks.

Class knowledge generally isn't my problem....my background is progression raiding, usually tanking, and I'm a theorycrafter by nature. It's simply a struggle translating it effectively into PvP (and no, I've never fully sussed out why managing threat+defensives on a boss while also managing adds, swaps, and such is easy for me, but paying the hell attention in a PvP fight is a struggle).

I'm surprised to hear you say avoid a healer (given I'm used to them being in high demand), but it also makes sense.

Appreciate the feedback

People will give you all kinds of advise on this one, some will even run with you to help.

The first thing you have to do is unlearn the PvE mentality of things being more scripted. in PvE if do the right thing at the right time = win. In PvP nothing is timed or scripted, its fully reactive.

Rotations?, forget them. Yes they are there to maximize your time freecasting, but odds are that wont be often. In PvP people actually use interrupts, slows, CCs, and a plethora of other skills most pure PvEers dont even have on their bars.

Think outside the box, be creative, sneaky, out-think them.

Most importantly, ignore the jerks. Many insecure player will blame literally everyone else (this team sucks) for thier loss instead of looking in the mirror. PvP is competitive and it can and often does bring out the worst in us.

Finally, have fun, welcome, and ill apologize now if i happen to shoot you in the tush later.

It's helpful, thanks.

 

Class knowledge generally isn't my problem....my background is progression raiding, usually tanking, and I'm a theorycrafter by nature. It's simply a struggle translating it effectively into PvP (and no, I've never fully sussed out why managing threat+defensives on a boss while also managing adds, swaps, and such is easy for me, but paying the hell attention in a PvP fight is a struggle).

 

I'm surprised to hear you say avoid a healer (given I'm used to them being in high demand), but it also makes sense.

 

Appreciate the feedback

Oh, if you are already familiar with tanking then going with a tank will certainly be better. In that case, tank-specific tips:

Replace warding mods with lethal mods (those with B are best for their high endurance), that is due to defense rating being nearly worthless in PVP for affecting only white damage and being nullified completely while stunned, and the defense in all mods is worth maybe mere 8% of this uselessness anyway (and the power you gain for that trade adds a lot to your damage with almost no losses at all).

As a tank, your job in objective warzones is to deal damage while also making sure the enemy fails to deal damage.

Your tools to prevent the enemy from damaging is taunting DPS as they execute their bursts (reduces damage dealt by 35% unless you are the target) and guarding the target who is being focused (defaultly a healer, usually). Guard diverts half of the damage from the guarded guy to you, but you are a tank and can usually take it better than he can. It only works if you are in 15m proximity, though. The last tool you have is not unique to tanks: stun the enemy when he wants to burst your friend, but as a tank, you have 2 hard stuns, so you do it better than others.

Tanks make the most of their damage potential when using AoEs, so rather than trying to focus down the healer, you might prefer to focus a guy who is close to other guys so your AoEs hit them better (if the healer is close to them, all the better, of course).

Due to the above mostly, going to the area where the main fighting is (the middle in all turret warzones and in hypergate, or the busier door on voidstar) is the best tactic for tanks, because then the above skills are most effective.

In huttballs I am afraid that means that ball carrying is actually a good idea for you, as you are more defensive than others. If you have a healer with you the only way to kill you in huttball would be to push you into a deathtrap (just keep the stunbreaker for this situation, pass the ball if you don't have it ready). Alternatively you can just guard the ball carrier to make it harder to damage him. Focus on taunting only people who target him. Attack these people, and be always ahead of him a bit so he can pass to you if all the above is not enough to save him. If you are not a guardian/juggernaut you also have a pull ability. You can use it to pull the enemy ball carrier into a deathtrap, follow with a stun, and get a guaranteed kill if timed right

In areans, your job is almost same as objective warzone but more emphasis on keeping friends alive than dealing damage (if you have a healer). Focus on switching the guard to the guy currently focused even more than you focus on dealing damage. Mass taunt on cooldown (if they aren't spread thin, or mass stunned, of course) and taunt one of the enemy DPS on cooldown as well (unless he can't attack at that moment due to being stunned/rooted). Your extra stun ability will make it easier to delay their damage as well, and if you aren't to stressed with preventing damage it can be used to prevent healing instead (make sure his resolve isn't already full. Healers get stunned a lot). Deal damage while you aren't doing the above, and try to focus the same target your DPS friends focus, but do it only if it doesn't distrupt the other things you need to do (if I constantly taunt and stun a DPS I might as well keep targeting him with my attacks in between). Also don't forget that in arenas too, your best damaging strength is in the AoEs.

This is all I can think of right now. Hope this helps

Rafik, thanks again....I have a Jugg, but it's already leveled, and the bit about building a PvP toon from fresh makes good sense. I'd pondered a sin, because everybody who doesn't play one says they're OP, so that must be true, right? Sounds like it's worth a shot.

Most importantly, ignore the jerks. Many insecure player will blame literally everyone else (this team sucks) for thier loss instead of looking in the mirror. PvP is competitive and it can and often does bring out the worst in us.

 

Finally, have fun, welcome, and ill apologize now if i happen to shoot you in the tush later.

Not if...when.

And yeah....jerks are jerks, I'm familiar with and prepared for that. I'm just trying to inflict the least possible pain on the folks who're trying to be human.

Also, shout out to Ne'laa for the guide...that thing's gold.

if you're a clicker, start keybinding and stop clicking today

make a decent UI and turn on cooldown text

find some capable players to learn from, preferably people who play in voice

if you're a clicker, start keybinding and stop clicking today

 

This at least isn't a problem.....can't move decently (repositions, fast pickups, getting out of the fire) as a PvE tank using the keyboard, and I had a reputation for kicking DPS who backpedalled out of fire.

This is the worst possible place to get advice on how to pvp.

Huh. Well, for one thing, I didn't really ask for advice on how to PvP. I asked for how to make myself the least irritating to people who're good at it.

For another, I thought things were going well until just this last post.

I notice you didn't offer any advice of your own, and didn't even point out how any of theirs was wrong. So I'm going to assume you either don't have any of your own to give, or you're just so elite that nothing you say would make any sense to me.

Either way, do you really lose anything by letting bads give another bad advice, and since that's the case, do you mind keeping that kind of loose change out of it so we can talk?

Suck at pvp? This game is perfect for you, seriously.

High end pvp balance is terrible, where 9/10 times everybody is invincible and you have minutes long wet noodle fights until healers accidentally go down.

So you don't need to be good or anything at all, don't need to do anything at all because nothings going to happen to either side for minutes on end either way.

Only problem is whichever team has more healers (or better ones, if even) instantly won before the match started, unless somehow outrotated on the objectives.

Sounds cynical and whatever else but is true.

Eh....for what it's worth, you're probably right about it suiting me.

I've always been a little frustrated by rapid-kill PvP....in the games I've experienced, the faster players die, the less important objectives become, and everything becomes a deathmatch by default. If you can't live long enough to do anything with the objectives, why bother?

Sounds like it'd make it more strategic, less tactical (which is kinda perfect for me...PvE background and lackluster twitch, and all that.)

Not dismissing your frustration if that's not the pace of play you're into, just saying, yeah, I might dig it more than I thought.

Well every person who has posted in this thread was bad at some point. So don't get down about it.

Read the stickied pvp guide and you'll be off to a good start.

Well every person who has posted in this thread was bad at some point. So don't get down about it.

 

Read the stickied pvp guide and you'll be off to a good start.

Oh, believe me, I'm not down about it...I'm good at things, just not so much this

I'm mostly just trying to be neighborly....If I'm gonna be unskilled for awhile, might as well acknowledge it, then make it as painless as I can for everybody else while I'm getting there.

And agree...that guide's a treasure.

Well every person who has posted in this thread was bad at some point. So don't get down about it.

.

So much that.

Some people act like they were birthed into existence as some sort of PVP savant. They aren't fooling anyone, probably not even themselves. Whether in SWTOR or some previous MMO they were also new to PVP at some point, sucked at it, and died a lot.

Well for one, I often specifically ask people to do something or leave something. Ie, when someone says they dont want your help capturing an enemy node its not because they want to boast they did it alone, but rather because as a non stealth you can completely ruin the element of surprise.

Same thing qith defending stuff, if im asking you to go mid because I only need 1 person to come and help me with an attacker on the offnode.. dont come in blazing with 5 people. Thats dumb.

90% of the time people completely ignore these things though, either out of ego "because i know what im doing bro" or because they really dont have any sort of a clue to start with.

Its the little things that matter the most.

[*]In arenas don't attack a guarded target (guard looks like some blue shield on the target, easy to recognize) unless this is the tactic you decided on (it usually is not), switch target when you see yours is guarded.

Hmm... I think the *BLUE* shield means they have a guard on them, but the guarder is out of range. At least that is what Ne'laa's guide says. I know, it's an easy mistake to make, because so many "tanks" (notice the quotes ) throw a guard on someone, and then proceed to leap into the fray and go chasing kills and are NEVER close enough for their guard to work. I usually see both guard symbols (the orange and the blue) together. So it almost doesn't matter.

To the original poster... if you want to not piss off any other tanks that happen to be in your group (or the guard-ees if they are paying attention)... DON'T DO THAT. If you are going to guard someone, stick with them. And (as someone else already pointed out) bonus points for swapping your guard to whoever is being focused and getting over there to help them. As another tank (sometimes), I'll even say it's fine to guard ME if I'm low on health and under focus.

I would say, if you are going to tank, don't worry too much about DPS, but TANK. Worry about guard, taunts and CCs first. Worry about DPS when you get familiar enough with the game that it doesn't distract you from your tank role in the match.

Hmm... I think the *BLUE* shield means they have a guard on them, but the guarder is out of range. At least that is what Ne'laa's guide says. I know, it's an easy mistake to make, because so many "tanks" (notice the quotes ) throw a guard on someone, and then proceed to leap into the fray and go chasing kills and are NEVER close enough for their guard to work. I usually see both guard symbols (the orange and the blue) together. So it almost doesn't matter.

I meant the graphical effect on the player. The buff is orange. The out of range is blue, but i range the effect of transferring damage is blue. But I can see how it wasn't clear.

Your playing tank?

Use your push/pulls, it's and aoe dynamic. Watch for immunity.

flag your healer and practise being close but not to close. See above for buying the healer time.

look up. Sounds simple but if you are getting tunnel visioned, stop, look up, and just take in the scene what would help the most? A delay and the right action is better than the wrong action quickly. You'll get faster in time.

Customise your UI. Make it easy to see friendly health bars. Your tanking they are your most important information.

Increase the size of the buffs/debuffs. No point guarding a player reflecting damage when another is about to die.

Stay in the middle of the pack. Lone players die easily. When you recognise the dynamic then you know when to pull players off node etc. Before you understand the dynamics you are hindering your team. Is more than one player following? Do you have plenty of dcds? can you push the player to create more distance stun and speed back?

But most of all learn you don't have to kill to attain the objective. Group stuns and pushes win matches. can you hold the enemy off someone planting/capping with a mez? is that op about to throw a stun grenade into the group your thinking about smashing?

Most importantly though and you have this bit nailed, have fun. Enjoy it and you get better with time.

PS when you want to really get good learn focus target and target of my target. This can be applied to the healer if he is free casting and you can guard the player he is healing or not as the situation demands. Or applied to an enemy who is that sniper targeting who needs the preemptive guard. PVP is about decisions and having more information gives you the chance to make the right one.

Thanks, everybody. This is going way better than I expected for the most part, and I appreciate everyone's time.

Well for one, I often specifically ask people to do something or leave something. Ie, when someone says they dont want your help capturing an enemy node its not because they want to boast they did it alone, but rather because as a non stealth you can completely ruin the element of surprise.

 

Same thing qith defending stuff, if im asking you to go mid because I only need 1 person to come and help me with an attacker on the offnode.. dont come in blazing with 5 people. Thats dumb.

 

90% of the time people completely ignore these things though, either out of ego "because i know what im doing bro" or because they really dont have any sort of a clue to start with.

 

Its the little things that matter the most.

Question for you: do you ever follow up with anybody after the fact, like after the match, to explain it further?

I ask because the bulk of my PvP experience is in WoW, because of course it is....I sometimes think even people who never played the game have AB flashbacks. There, at least back in the day, the zone chat mass hysteria/delusion was incredibly common: "ZOMG push farm!!! Idiot, hold 3!". The only way to stay even marginally sane was to ignore the bulk of it. From what I've seen so far from the guide and such (Orbs?), it's common here, too.

Now, what you're describing makes perfect sense, and in the middle of a match, you don't really have time to explain it fully (nor should you take the time). What I always found the most helpful were the few times somebody would whisper me after, and say "hey, when I asked you to do that thing, and you ignored me, and we got thrashed? Here's why that happened..."

Is that realistic or common here?

Question for you: do you ever follow up with anybody after the fact, like after the match, to explain it further?

 

Is that realistic or common here?

Nah not really. I would spend way too much time PMing people. And when I tried stuff like that in the past you pretty much always get blown off anyway. Accepting help equals admitting you don't really know your stuff

Most people can't or won't make peace with that thought. If more people actually questioned themselves like you are doing here and now, the average player wouldn't be as bad as they are. I don't even mean that as an insult, it's just true.

As a matter of fact I probably get more in depth questions from good, established players than I get from newbies.

At least those people are genuinely interested in broadening their horizon.

If you are wondering why I made any requests, you can always PM me after the fact.

If you're actually serious about wanting to learn I will always respond in kindness.

 

If you are wondering why I made any requests, you can always PM me after the fact.

If you're actually serious about wanting to learn I will always respond in kindness.

Good point, and more than fair, putting the burden on the one who might have screwed up. Worst that happens is somebody blows me off no worse than what already happened, and it's a more realistic chance of success than the other way around.