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How to make Jugg DPS viable in PVP ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
How to make Jugg DPS viable in PVP ?
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DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
01.21.2018 , 03:47 AM | #1
I main a fury marauder on darth malgus and after reading the 2 nerf mara troll threads, I decided to give Jugg dps a try, mainly the rage spec which is almost like fury.

Not having predation and force camo is making things interesting for juggs...


The damage output is massive. raging burst hitting up to 32k, but don't seem to stay alive long enough to make the most of it ?

I am a constructive person and I don't believe in nerfs the same way like this PVP community here does.


What could they do to make Jugg DPS more viable in PVP ?

What buffs does it need ? To me it seems like the self heals aren't 5.0 levels and the reflect saber is a joke. Reflect saber should be increased to 6 seconds or even 8 seconds and in my view the self healing needs a little tweak. Maybe modify some passive to give little heals over time or endure pain to heal me up to 60% and give heal over time for 5 seconds ?

Thoughts ?

sayNih's Avatar


sayNih
01.21.2018 , 09:18 AM | #2
Forget DCDs, Jugg should be no-click defense. They can remove Enraged Defense if they won't update it.
Just double the rating of Heavy Armor.
A stealth/aggro drop would be out of character.
""*

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
01.21.2018 , 12:32 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by sayNih View Post
Forget DCDs, Jugg should be no-click defense. They can remove Enraged Defense if they won't update it.
Just double the rating of Heavy Armor.
What makes you say that? Why would there be a class who is passively as good as other players who need to use DCDs. Won't that mean that a jugg gets auto-win when he attacks a target who has exhausted his DCDs? Won't that mean jugg DPS are halfway tanky already and are viable even without changing spec for tanking OPS?

What you are suggesting is in other words skank with bursty DPS rotation. Skanks are already a problem enough with DPS gear and tank rotation, we don't need any improved version of them.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.21.2018 , 01:21 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
What makes you say that? Why would there be a class who is passively as good as other players who need to use DCDs. Won't that mean that a jugg gets auto-win when he attacks a target who has exhausted his DCDs? Won't that mean jugg DPS are halfway tanky already and are viable even without changing spec for tanking OPS?

What you are suggesting is in other words skank with bursty DPS rotation. Skanks are already a problem enough with DPS gear and tank rotation, we don't need any improved version of them.
I've tried to explain this to this guy before somewhere else. Even on the tank side the class with the most passive defense is supposed to be VG, but they are in such a sad place defensively right now it's hard to say that.

On topic, under enough focus as a dps guardian you're just screwed. You can kite, you can time focused defense, with a healer you can enure in a pinch, but if they keep up the focus you're just screwed. If there are enough ranged, it's easier because reflect can then be used to effect. It's supposed to be our anti-focus but in the current fury mara meta it doesn't really help much.

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
01.21.2018 , 02:10 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I've tried to explain this to this guy before somewhere else. Even on the tank side the class with the most passive defense is supposed to be VG, but they are in such a sad place defensively right now it's hard to say that.
Exactly.
PTs, both the tanks and the DPS, prove that passive defensives are useless in PVP.
If they were as good as DCDs they would be OP because it would literally mean 100% uptime DCDs which not even require a ms for the player to waste in order to activate the ability versus timed DCDs that waste the time it takes the finger to reach the keybind (which is longer than 0ms) or even sometimes trigger a full GCD. It is clearly unfair and therefore BioWare DIDN'T do this.
So what DID they do? They made the passive defense crap, almost unfelt, and now we have a class with weak DCDs with long CDs. What other kind of DPS doesn't have the ability to increase his chance to avoid any kind of abilities AND doesn't have an H2F mechanics or any self-heals (shoulder cannon doesn't count)? All that PT DPS have is 20% DR and a weak healing which can sustain him versus the DPS of 2 DPS max, and that too is just up to 35% from which he dies in 3 secs once it is ended (and 3m CD!!). Power tech tanks additionally get a 25% absorption for 6 seconds every ~10-15 secs and an accuracy reduction that is ineffective against players who bother looking at their feet and moving out.
We DON'T want juggs to get the same fate. The options are active DCD, OP, or underperforming. The only real choice is active DCD.

The 1st obvious change needed is reflect to work on melee abilities as well, because why not? If it means that a jugg who had 1% and used reflect will not be killed for the duration of reflect, so be it! It doesn't heal him like the merc's one, so once reflect is over he will die unless healed by something external. Fair as any saving DCD.
Another possibility is a passive, that, to be honest, is missing from many underpowered classes and could benefit the PT as well as the jugg, that would reduce damage taken (by something small, like 10-20%) while in low HP (30%), or trigger a short immunity for a short amount of time (3s?) upon reaching critical state (10%?) that has a high rate limit such as 1-1.5 mins.
One more thing would be mobility. Return the speed utility to endure pain rather than enraged defense. ED has longer CD and lasts shorter (when focused) than EP, making it quite useless [We can make EP speed up the user for 10 seconds regardless of the duration if you fear tanks will be OP for it]. It is not like juggs used to be running in circles around others anyway, and with all other mobilities buffed it is just fair

Jugg Mainers, as well as jugg hunters, tell me what you think. Both sides are important

sayNih's Avatar


sayNih
01.21.2018 , 03:24 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
What makes you say that? Why would there be a class who is passively as good as other players who need to use DCDs. Won't that mean that a jugg gets auto-win when he attacks a target who has exhausted his DCDs? Won't that mean jugg DPS are halfway tanky already and are viable even without changing spec for tanking OPS?

What you are suggesting is in other words skank with bursty DPS rotation. Skanks are already a problem enough with DPS gear and tank rotation, we don't need any improved version of them.
If you give DPS Juggs good DCDs, and stealth, they become......mauraders. I don't want a bad copy of another class. Calling Jugg 'halfway tanky' defines the class.
""*

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.21.2018 , 03:48 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by sayNih View Post
If you give DPS Juggs good DCDs, and stealth, they become......mauraders. I don't want a bad copy of another class. Calling Jugg 'halfway tanky' defines the class.
I don't want stealth. Overall, we have good DCDs. What's needed, as rafi was getting at, is an anti focus tool like reflect is supposed to be.

yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
01.21.2018 , 04:01 PM | #8
nerfing overpowered classes like marauder would be a good start

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.21.2018 , 04:11 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
nerfing overpowered classes like marauder would be a good start
Genuine question: are we including combat and watchmen sents too? Because it's really only concentration that seems to be overperforming.

yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
01.21.2018 , 05:29 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Mannok View Post
Class balance is important and remove the most extreme first

There is also cluster of abilities that could be changed that would make PVP good and Juggers viable:

1) Remove CC immunity making you immune to Hard Stuns beside entrench (give shorter CD but remove Imp prep. so it can't be reset).
2) AoE Knockbacks from anything beside 1 CD and 1 per class 1/30s. AoE knockbacks on Sins changed to single target Lightning Force Push (from intro). Perhaps knockback changed to affect only Ambush or similar for Sniper (15s+ CD)
3) Aoe Slows removed. Low Slash turned into a root.
4) Slows lasting longer than 6s changed and add resolve to slows and roots and complete immunity to both. at 100%.
5) remove Predation for a whole team and the extra speed utility deleted.
6) Make Hard Stuns break from damage after 2 secs.
7) 30 meter Force Charge to be 20-25 meters. Melee +15-25% base movement speed.
8) +10% Base mitigation and +10 defense chance or Shield as survival for melee/PT (Endure Pain and cloak of pain removed) Merc Shield Reset removed.
9) spammable heals in none heal specs removed.
10) Top Highest Burst from 4.5 secs reduced by 10-20% (to make less burst classes viable).
what the ****