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Parity in GSF


TheBeerDude's Avatar


TheBeerDude
01.18.2018 , 10:04 PM | #1
I've been playing GSF since the start and it seems that parity is gone (at least on Star Forge) and it is no fun for either side. It is getting to the point where one side is so totally dominate that they are constantly hitting the other team at the respawn points. It is no fun on either side when a death match is 50-8 or 600-30 on domination. It is no fun to be on the losing side where you are getting hit just as you come off a respawn point (even in domination) and it's no fun when you are on the winning side because there are 3 or 4 pilots trying to hit the only ship that isn't dead. But that what it seems to be all the time and GSF is no fun anymore.

I understand that there are new pilots but they need to be kept engaged so they can learn and get better. It will be hard for them to stick with it so they can move up the learning curve when they are getting totally destroyed or can't get a kill on every match. Parity needs to be restored. GSF needs to be fun again.

I suggest PVP rules are implemented:
1) No groups
2) Teams are no longer faction specific (like on Odessen PVP)
3) Teams are selected by capability

I think this would restore parity, make the game fun again and hopefully get more new pilots in the game.

Thank you for your time.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
01.18.2018 , 11:17 PM | #2
(1) Would destroy the game for anyone that takes it seriously. There's also no precedent for this: ground pvp has groups. Every other game like this has groups. GSF is a group game. This idea is absolutely wretched.
(2) Is a reasonable idea.
(3) Wouldn't be bad, but there's no way to do it without a ranking system.

The existing system does try to group by experience and gear. But there's limits to what can be done there. During times with multiple games, it works ok-ish. If there's only one active game though...
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Ianir's Avatar


Ianir
01.18.2018 , 11:23 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBeerDude View Post
I've been playing GSF since the start and it seems that parity is gone (at least on Star Forge) and it is no fun for either side. It is getting to the point where one side is so totally dominate that they are constantly hitting the other team at the respawn points. It is no fun on either side when a death match is 50-8 or 600-30 on domination. It is no fun to be on the losing side where you are getting hit just as you come off a respawn point (even in domination) and it's no fun when you are on the winning side because there are 3 or 4 pilots trying to hit the only ship that isn't dead. But that what it seems to be all the time and GSF is no fun anymore.

I understand that there are new pilots but they need to be kept engaged so they can learn and get better. It will be hard for them to stick with it so they can move up the learning curve when they are getting totally destroyed or can't get a kill on every match. Parity needs to be restored. GSF needs to be fun again.

I suggest PVP rules are implemented:
1) No groups
2) Teams are no longer faction specific (like on Odessen PVP)
3) Teams are selected by capability

I think this would restore parity, make the game fun again and hopefully get more new pilots in the game.

Thank you for your time.
Hi, who are you writing to? The devs don't read this forum (at least not most of the threads), but the community does.

And while we're here, let me direct you to another useful resource. This is the GSF Community Discord. https://discord.gg/wSyGSp

It's a good place to find some friends to group up with. There are many skilled pilots there who would be willing to help you if you are getting stomped and need a hand. I have toons on all of the English servers and would be happy to group with you or work with you to grow in your skill as a GSF pilot.

I understand that you're frustrated with getting stomped. I've been there. I agree that those games are no fun (whether I'm doing the stomping or someone else is stomping me). But your proposed solution will never be implemented. So, rather than expect the devs to do something to "restore" parity (there was never real, consistent parity - and there never will be), you should take action yourself.

Make some friends. This is an MMO. Fly with others. Hit us up in the discord. Check out players' videos (like mine) and Despon's GSF School on Youtube. Learn more about the game, and group up. These are the ways you're going to create a more enjoyable playing experience for yourself, not some futile hope that the devs will do anything.

Sorry if this was harsh, but it's reality.

PS - Drinking beer helps too. Looks like you've got that covered.

XhrisShan's Avatar


XhrisShan
02.05.2018 , 02:40 PM | #4
On Darth Malgus, if any of about 50 imp pilots are online, pubs may as well not bother.
Faction imbalance is a witch.

SoothingDarkness's Avatar


SoothingDarkness
02.09.2018 , 11:26 PM | #5
1) No groups
I'd say have solo queue, and group queue. Split it up, so you either queue for one or the other. Nobody wants to mix them into the same battle. The groups frequently piss off everyone else. Grouping shouldn't be forced on everybody in order to play without being annihilated every battle. And for the comment about it being in other games, the same problems exist in other games. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it.

2) Teams are no longer faction specific (like on Odessen PVP)
Factions are kind of integral in GSF. Maybe you could implement that into some new maps, but not the ones which have great big capital ships shooting at each other. Maybe some way of just seeing people's ships as your faction's equivalent.

3) Teams are selected by capability
It would be nice to have some sort of skill based group division. However I think that randomizing mixed with my other two suggestions would eliminate the predictable outcomes somewhat. Some actual skill balance mechanism may or may not be better than true randomizing. It's hard to make one, and it's questionable whether there would be any improvement over random mixes. That said; when groups are mixed in with solo queue, there are never random mixes.

A big issue is the use of third party programs, which make it so that people can talk to each other when playing. On it's own this is a non-issue. However it creates a huge disparity in the overall power of a team, regardless of the skill of the individual pilots. The very fact that it is not universally used, makes it a cheat. Since there is no practical way to prevent people from using them, including a good communication system into the game itself would be a possible solution.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
02.13.2018 , 01:24 PM | #6
> I'd say have solo queue, and group queue. Split it up, so you either queue for one or the other.

Lol. It's a team game. If you can't find a team, you will be at a disadvantage compared to those who can. Doing what you talk about would destroy GSF, and make it into some solo queue nonsense.

> the same problems exist in other games

They aren't problems, they are good game design.

> The very fact that it is not universally used, makes it a cheat.

No, this is not what a cheat is. People in the same room is not cheating. People talking on ventrilo/mumble/discord is not cheating. Someone doing something you are not personally doing is not cheating.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
02.13.2018 , 08:20 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by SoothingDarkness View Post
1) No groups
This argument is about as old as online games themselves. I have talked about separating the queues before, although I have also discussed creating separate incentives for solo-queuing vs group queuing. I've argued that the rewards could be different for soloq because the risk of losing is higher when you queue by yourself. I've argued that for both ground unranked pvp and for GSF. Its been largely met with silence, and counter-arguments that creating any unbalanced incentive or separate queues would overall destroy the game, based largely on the hypothesis that the changes will be so unbalanced that even dedicated teams of GSF pilots would be forced to ungroup just to get a pop to happen. These counter arguments come from some people that I have some respect for, who group pvp in other games and formats, so I don't dismiss them as invalid simply because I don't agree with them. I'd like to think that the act of solo-queueing could be incentivized in such a way that it would not destroy groups, and I don't think the separation of queues or separate incentives would "destroy GSF." I think there is a spectrum of outcomes, hard to predict, but I will concede that a negative impact is possible. It would only work if the people in it for the incentives greatly outnumber the people in it for the team aspect. And, if you piss off the people in it for the team aspect, you will lose people that write guides, stream, do youtube videos ... you will lose a lot of the teachers this game has. It happened in the ground game: Hayete never finished his operation boss guide series, and countless other contributors and guide writers are long gone. I have yet to see teachers emerge yet in the wake of the loss of these community members. Dulfy has precious few post-5.6 advanced class guides up and there have been a lot of changes to the ground game (and discoveries about stats) since 5.0. I would hate to see that happen here in GSF.

Quote: Originally Posted by SoothingDarkness View Post
2) Teams are no longer faction specific (like on Odessen PVP)
No, I think the engineering time to do this would be better spent elsewhere. I'd rather see Infiltrators developed, or a new game mode like an escort. Maybe its not as complicated as I think.

Quote: Originally Posted by SoothingDarkness View Post
3) Teams are selected by capability
Yeah this is pretty tough. I mean, the game already does some matchmaking based on ship requisition. In another thread I discussed why making the pilot stats, such as kill/death ratio, legacy wide, would introduce a lag problem during the matchmaking, as the game tried to look up the stats of everyone's legacy. I guess it could base it on just the player's pilot stats, but then people could get around it by playing a new alt, since you can queue up for GSF from the moment you set foot in game at lil ol' level 1. And, people who group are sort of self-selected: they know that grouping and working together is advantageous, both from a queue priority as well as determining the outcome of the match. They already have a desire to optimize their performance. Its almost like they have the will to take the steps to improve their game, maximize their advantage over the competition. Hmm... Anyway, I usually solo queue and being on both sides of unbalanced matches, I would love to see something to improve matchmaking. But, I don't know what that would be short of creating an ELO system for GSF like there is for ground ranked pvp.

Quote: Originally Posted by SoothingDarkness View Post
A big issue is the use of third party programs, which make it so that people can talk to each other when playing.
I remember when Sony Online Entertainment added that to all their MMORPGs including Star Wars Galaxies. It worked, but it was buggy and it lacked features which were important to guilds, and in the end most guilds gravitated away from it, at least in SWG. Its still alive in SOE (now Daybreak Games)' current portfolio including DCUO and the EQ games, so I presume its had updates, but who knows if it has the economy of Mumble, the feature set of Discord, the moddability of TeamSpeak. Because of its bugs, it never really solved the problem of people not communicating. You can't force a person to enable it, and you can't force a player to listen to what is being said even if you don't wish to talk or use a microphone. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it show up in this game, but I'd like to see some objective evidence that its integration into other MMORPGs is successful. Who knows if the Hero engine can even support it, at least the customized alpha version upon which BW built the game. To call it cheating, though, is kinda sour apples on your part. The Devs have been crystal clear they don't consider it an exploit. More importantly, the GSF Discord has open voice channels, and the GSF Discord is open, and Discord is free, so you kinda don't have any excuse.
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Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
02.14.2018 , 08:07 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
I have talked about separating the queues before, although I have also discussed creating separate incentives for solo-queuing vs group queuing. I've argued that the rewards could be different for soloq because the risk of losing is higher when you queue by yourself. I've argued that for both ground unranked pvp and for GSF. Its been largely met with silence, and counter-arguments that creating any unbalanced incentive or separate queues would overall destroy the game, based largely on the hypothesis that the changes will be so unbalanced that even dedicated teams of GSF pilots would be forced to ungroup just to get a pop to happen. These counter arguments come from some people that I have some respect for, who group pvp in other games and formats, so I don't dismiss them as invalid simply because I don't agree with them. I'd like to think that the act of solo-queueing could be incentivized in such a way that it would not destroy groups, and I don't think the separation of queues or separate incentives would "destroy GSF."
You've got it backwards Phalczen. If there's any sort of working automatic solo queue system then solo queuing does not need to be incentivized at all, because that's the choice most people will go for. What needs incentives is for more people to group. This isn't just in GSF, or even just in SWTOR, it's in most western style MMORPGs, and even in genres like RTS, MOBA, and FPS games.

Grouping has costs: you have to seek out people to group with, you have to socialize with a bunch of strangers, you have to socialize well enough that they'll be willing to group with you again, you have to do all this coordination at a time when members of your preferred group are available, etc. It's a hassle in some respects.

It works for raiding at high level because the encounters are designed so the lack of a coordinated team pretty much guarantees failure. Raiders team up because the game forces them to.

Compare to PvP, where unranked is more populated than ranked which is more populated than team ranked. There's matchmaking, so in theory at least, the difficulty should be about the same in all as you're being matched against opponent groups of similar competence. However, the game doesn't really force you to group, and though the rewards are greatest for coordinated groups, they're not great enough to motivate more than a tiny fraction of players into actual coordinated group competitive play.

If you want to incentivize enough on the "follow the loot" model of player motivation, you have to bribe people to group up with really extravagant rewards to make grouping the norm if the gameplay doesn't force grouping. When I say extravagant, I mean that every experienced player would tell a new player, "you have to be ignorant or insane to solo queue." I'm not sure if a 10:1 reward ratio would be enough to motivate people to group rather than solo queue, even if you changed the UI and queuing process so that solo queue was an opt-in choice rather than the default.

If solo queuing required incentives then you'd expect most people in the queue to be queuing as groups, not that the overwhelming majority of the queue is solo queuers.


Balance via bribery won't happen though I think, because you'd have to shovel SO MUCH loot at the group queue in order to increase grouping that it would be outrageously unfair.


I'm sure one could design to push people into grouping as the normal choice, but SWTOR very much does not do that.
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Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
02.14.2018 , 09:21 AM | #9
Not to mention even if you incentivized group queu's, you'd get the same the Granked is getting (and complaining about now). Many players will join just for the rewards and intentionally not try, and will lose as fast as possible, just for the rewards. Giving out rewards for doing Group activities won't work the way you want it to. Not sure solo queu rewards will work well either.
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
02.14.2018 , 09:13 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
You've got it backwards Phalczen. If there's any sort of working automatic solo queue system then solo queuing does not need to be incentivized at all, because that's the choice most people will go for. What needs incentives is for more people to group. This isn't just in GSF, or even just in SWTOR, it's in most western style MMORPGs, and even in genres like RTS, MOBA, and FPS games.
Eh, I dunno. Its certainly quicker to queue solo, you just click on a button in the UI. That doesn't mean that I, with thousands of games under his belt, doesn't know that his odds of victory increase just by grouping.

And grouping is widely believed to be successful. I mean, there wouldn't be tons of people on forums of all sorts of games complaining about groups rolling all over them if it didn't result in victory, right? So, if even relatively novice players come to this conclusion, it stands to reason the "reward" or "incentive" to group is the higher likelihood of victory. But I get what you, and others are saying. Still, Verain, for example, doesn't group up for the CXP. I mean his Sentinel has a complete set of 248 gear min-maxed, but that's more for its comedic value than its value for the ground game. Drak takes pride in the fact he's got hundreds of command crates he's never opened. It seems to me that you dangle the carrot of "CXP" gains in front of the non-GSF player and when he/she is intimidated by the roflstomping by premadess, you remind them that they get more CXP for solo-queuing. Then, hopefully, they stick with it long enough to ultimately decide if they want to truly learn it, and be victorious doing so, or if it remains just another way to earn CXP. Its no different than offering unassembled tokens, or role-in-need rewards, from entering group finder for raids. The hope is that people get into operations, or get into different trinity roles, and then find they enjoy it, and the number of raiders, or the number of tanks, increase. But we can go 'round and 'round on this topic and we will never see eye to eye on this. Its not worth belaboring, since we both agree that banning groups entirely, or only allowing solo-queuing, is bad in any form.
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