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On Star Wars and the future of it...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
On Star Wars and the future of it...

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
01.09.2018 , 10:42 AM | #1
I fell (fall?) in love with Star Wars for many reasons since I watched Episode IV: A New Hope back in 1980 when I was sixteen years old...

However the main reason is that George Lucas' Star Wars had something to tell about the persons of the real world and about myself, namely it had (and has) to said something that I valued as very important!

In fact George Lucas' SW has spoken about two different things: the influence of politics (and particularly of the "Leviathan" of the State to the life of (even gifted and "strong") human individuals and the relationship between i) the pressure of the reality and ii) the finite, e.g. the weak human nature and the deepest desires of this, non-omnipotent and non-omniscient but very gifted and (hopefully) self-respected (and perhaps) egotistic individual.
That said, George Lucas has been an artist with a vision and one skilled director. And last but not least, he is (was?) also an ambitious businessman.



I have already written that the aforementioned Star Wars can be compared i) with e.g. Beethoven's "Coriolanus Overture" and also with Coppola's "The Godfather I, II"; after all it seems to me that Star Wars is mostly "The Godfather" in a "much larger scale" and with more aspects in the form of an ancient Saga where the heroes are not just gifted individuals with a strong ego but also demi-gods. The rise of the heroes to the state of demi-gods makes possible to create a Saga-like masterpiece and to make a comparison between these demi-gods and the Leviathan of a contemporary State with the immense possibilities of its organizations and all! Some Force Users' skills permit a certain tragic rivalry between these individuals and the possibilities of the organized, nowadays societies... Almost omniscient demi-gods can try to compete with computers, networks and social organizations or even States!!...




Unfortunately Disney's Star Wars (unlike The Bible, Homer, Dante, Shakespeare, Beethoven, Coppola or Lucas) has almost nothing to say about real human beings,
Or it had nothing so far to say about human beings and their tragedies...

Rey's upbringing has to do with the unified Sides of the Force, in fact the Force -as a whole- had become Rey's actual family for very obvious reasons. Or Rey had some "memory wipe" like, say, Revan...
One way or another Rey's story and personality has too little to do with the story and personality of Coriolanus, Hamilcar Barca, Hannibal Barca and the Barca family, Vito Corleone, Michael Corleone and the Corleone family or Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker and the Skywalker family...

Kylo Ren is a demi-god who has chosen to go after visions and dreams of omnipotence or he is after a delusion of grandeur. Like, say, Alexander the Great... Well, such a demi-god is capable to go after such visions and "delusions" without effectively being a psychotic!... After all, all these visions and quests seem to be -in principle- within his power... Snoke (so far) has been without any background and all, unlike Palpatine who i) had invented an ingenious path to power and in order to achieve this very goal ii) had exploited (and revealed) dangerous real weaknesses of the Republic!...
Regarding Valcorion, Darth Sidious and Snoke I tend to remember that "Some are born great, some achieve greatness ... and some have greatness thrown upon them"!!...

Judge for yourselves what Rey, Kylo Ren and Snoke have to do with real human beings...
Add to all that the effort of Disney's directors to address the fan-base of X-Men and the audience of Avatar...


Of course it's true that I deliberately had watched TFA three times and I have watched TLJ four times! How so? Perhaps it's seductive, perhaps SW is addictive for me ... or there is some charm inherent in these movies.
But they still are very successful action movies, nothing more!

Disney would answer that it had to make use of the current SW momentum in order to "break even" because there is an investment of more than three billion dollars! And it's not a wise policy to present the heavy artillery at the first battles of some ambitious campaign and such...

I respect all these arguments and other arguments similar to these, regarding target marketing and all.

And I hope that we may watch in the future some masterpieces like The Empire strikes back (a too great hope) or The Attack of the Clones, The Phantom Menace or The Revenge of the Sith, the so-called prequels that are underestimated by a superficial and naive part of the SW fan-base.
I firmly believe that these expectations aren't too great but I don't know if Disney's Lucas Arts would have something to do with their fulfillment ... though it should. Of course it should but I don't know if it could...

However the very foundation of this optimism is the delivery of such masterpieces within the SW universe as:
i) SW:KotOR2; TSL, an unfinished but real masterpiece and
ii) SW:TOR; BotE, a real masterpiece in the form of a comic!!

Even SW:KotOR was much more interesting and immersive than TFA or TLJ, in fact it is a real work of art. TFA and TLJ are just products of entertainers, targeting to break even an investment; just staff for kids (like a part of myself!...) and a naive fan-base, nothing more. On the contrary SW:TOR;KotFE and SW:TOR;KotET are real works of art and this "imago" of a Wannabe God Valcorion was able to tell us that there is neither morality nor even crime (and perhaps sin) regarding individuals of such power; after all how many of us wouldn't absorb all life from a World in order to become immortal?!? That demonstrates clearly the dangerous part of our very nature!! That's something!...

juliushorst's Avatar


juliushorst
01.09.2018 , 07:26 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by cunctatorg View Post

Even SW:KotOR was much more interesting and immersive than TFA or TLJ, in fact it is a real work of art. TFA and TLJ was just products of entertainers, targeting to break even an investment; just staff for kids (like a part of myself!...) and a naive fan-base, nothing more.
Here I must disagree with you. Don't get me wrong, I've seen the TLJ twice (hoping it'll grow on me) and I find it rather... not enjoyable, to say it lightly. But if it was supposed to be a product to sell, it failed. If they wanted to make an easy buck, they would've gone TFA way - lots of OT material (both in the plot and the visuals), competent but unoriginal story, some answer to mysteries of the past and some new questions to keep fans waiting for the new installment.
TLJ is nothing like that. TLJ is what I believe would come out if David Lych teamed up with Mel Brooks to create a Star Wars movie. Lych creates works that excell at visual level and are full of symbolism, but he doesn't care about creating likeable characters and his plots (especially in his later works like 'Inland Empire') may feel a bit random. Mel Brooks treated everything as a joke or a chance to tell a joke - good, bad, mediocre, that's not really important, what's important is that the joke was implemented. So for me TLJ was like Lynch made all that weird stuff, symbolism, force visions, weird conversations inside one's head and then Mel Brooks came, added some loose plot and tones of jokes.

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
01.14.2018 , 12:06 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by juliushorst View Post
Here I must disagree with you. Don't get me wrong, I've seen the TLJ twice (hoping it'll grow on me) and I find it rather... not enjoyable, to say it lightly. But if it was supposed to be a product to sell, it failed.
....
TLJ is nothing like that. TLJ is what I believe would come out if David Ly
nch teamed up with Mel Brooks to create a Star Wars movie. Lynch ... Mel Brooks ...
So for me TLJ was like Lynch made all that weird stuff, symbolism, force visions, weird conversations inside one's head and then Mel Brooks came, added some loose plot and tones of jokes.
Well, everyone (namely every thinking person) has to explain how that movie was so profitable and what is its nature. Your disgust (not so unjustified!...) made you declare that SW:Episode VIII;TLJ didn't sell though it was absolutely clear (before the day I wrote the fist post) that it is a great financial success...

For me it isn't just a joke; SW:TLJ is the synthesis of three components but there is something more than that synthesis.
A) There is a strong and solid subplot (the main dish) including Luke's failure to control his destructive and fearful drives towards his very apprentice (which is a repetition and variation of Mace Windu's eventual attitude towards Darth Sidious), the interaction between Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo, the confrontation of Rey and Snoke (which is also a variation of the confrontation between Luke and Palpatine; here the solution is not given by Darth Vader's self-sacrifice but by Kylo Ren's intervention by means of an action that is a synthesis of Vader's cunning one and that of Obi-wan Kenobi against Darth Maul and also of Darth Thanaton against Exal Kressh; however the point is that Kylo Ren chooses not to sacrifice himself in order to save his beloved but to take some risks in order to rise to power with -or without- his beloved, thus a real variation, the other side of that old coin) and finally the surprising use of Luke Skywalker's Force Phasma in order to cripple Kylo Ren's forces...
B) There is an addition of "entertaining" subplots. Here a needed break by means of entertainment (namely a relax break) and ... "fishing" (e.g. expansion to different fan-bases) is the main reason for the existence of these "naive" and "shallow" ("loose")subplots and ....
C) there is also a denouncement -from Disney's part- of the Star Wars mythology; they are trying to make somehow a joke (to put it mildly!) about all that... If not a ridicule of it!! Luke's repeated ridiculous and grotesque actions and Yoda's "cheapened" presence aside, the main example is Leia's gross and untimely joke about the standard wish regarding the Force and that just a few hours after the very moment that Leia had chosen to survive and had made use of the ... Force in order to achieve that miracle!... In my opinion Disney chooses to declare that this Force concept and all is just some joke; Disney, you see, is a serious corporation and it doesn't cultivate any cult of such ridiculous concepts. It chooses instead to make excessive use of political correctness (the basic instrument of many Republics' nowadays authorities in order to run the "voting herd"...) which also tends to become a joke but it ... doesn't (?!) matter.
George Lucas had also made use of many components of that very recipe in Episodes IV and VI, the weaker parts of his work but this isn't all...

There is something much more important and controversial also; the artist (e.g. Disney) addresses here the unconscious of us, the spectators. How? By means of the bare representation of the bare unconscious psychoanalytical drives and desires of the heroes. By the word "bare" I mean that there is a minimal (if not less) connection between their ego, their decisions and deeds and the conditions of the reality!!... George Lucas had never walked so far in this ... naive (and broken) path in the (chronologically) first trilogy and he was able to deliver two decades later another, much more elaborated, way of dealing with these issues in Episodes I-III (The Phantom Menace, The Attack of the Clones and The Revenge of the Sith). There is a literal and bare patricide ( in TFA) together with ideas of omnipotence etc. etc.; this is the reason that the spectators massively watch these movies at the first place and afterwards they complain that they have the feeling that these (seductive) movies are ... madhouses!! There is indeed something autistic (if not schizophrenic) that permeates these movies and their connection with the audiences!...

Anyways the bottom line is that these movies are a huge financial success and therefore the scholars and the thinking persons have to explain all that! The theorists of the Arts but mostly the leadership of psychoanalysis, e.g. the theorists of the object-oriented relations and such.

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
01.14.2018 , 07:13 PM | #4
However there is one main question: is all this art ?!? And how so?!?

I am sorry to say that (and go so far) but the answer to that very question has to be found in the answer of the aforementioned question regarding the huge ... financial success of these products!!
Namely: upside-down and in-out (excuse again my poor English) or so...

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
01.14.2018 , 08:30 PM | #5
Given their huge financial success, these movies, SW:Episode VII;TFA and particularly SW:Episode VIII;TLJ (together with Avatar) are perhaps (and should be considered) the essence -or even the epitome- of the necrophiliac post-modern "revolution".
After all many people admire (and did admire) Richard Wagner's work...

By the way some wise person had once said to me that "he didn't even see love (namely real love) in Wagner"; this is true because the essence of Wagner's work is pure narcissism... Well, I sense that SW:Episode IX will be about Kylo Ren's and Rey's weird and tragic love; for Kylo Ren a desperate love should be the one and only shelter after his eventual -and then pointless- rise to "absolute" power. As it was Richard Wagner's work (and essentially the described eventual fall) the one and only shelter for the "psychotic genius" (in Henry Kissinger's words) of Adolf Hitler and particularly after his near rise to success. There is only one minor difference; Adolf Hitler seemed to be a maniac-depressive psychotic though Richard Wagner's narcissism found a certain cure in his work. Unlike Hemingway, that is...

juliushorst's Avatar


juliushorst
01.15.2018 , 01:23 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by cunctatorg View Post
[COLOR="Wheat"]However there is one main question: is all this art ?!? And how so?!?

I am sorry to say that (and go so far) but the answer to that very question has to be found in the answer of the aforementioned question regarding the huge ... financial success of these products!!
Have to disagree once more. I've heared lots of definition of art and none of them was 'Art is something that makes a lot of money'. If that was the definition, Michael Bay would be praised as one of the best modern artists and art-lovers would fill audiences in every Lady Gaga concert.
I like this simple definition: 'Art is something that causes strong emotional reaction'. In this regard, TLJ seems to be art

DocOfTheBrew's Avatar


DocOfTheBrew
01.15.2018 , 03:06 PM | #7
I don't know how George Lucas can not feel sick at what Disney has done to star wars, well the movie continuations at least. There is no creativity or originality at all, they took story plots from the original movies 4 and 5 and implemented it into the story, made a new version of the main character, and added in dialogue. There is a deleted scene from the first movie in which Chewbacca rips off the arm of the big guy from jakku that offered portions for trying to attack Rey when they are in the cantina. This just shows that they regurgitated the same ideas instead of creating a true continuation. I wish George left his legacy to someone with more of a creative vision for continuation and taken a pay cut. Disney discarded so much lore and stories that created the enormous universe of star wars. I watched the new movies because I love star wars, but I really wish Disney did not get their hands on it. You know they did okay with Rebels it was its own creation and storyline within star wars. But how could they screw up the big budget movie canon, I know, with lazy directors that have no creative vision what so ever.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
01.15.2018 , 03:38 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by DocOfTheBrew View Post
I don't know how George Lucas can not feel sick at what Disney has done to star wars, well the movie continuations at least.
Have you seen the Prequels? Disney has been rehabilitating Star Wars after Lucas himself gave us a taste of what his vision for the property amounted to.
One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars. ~Kain

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AlienEyeTX's Avatar


AlienEyeTX
01.15.2018 , 06:37 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by cunctatorg View Post

And I hope that we may watch in the future some masterpieces like The Empire strikes back (a too great hope) or The Attack of the Clones, The Phantom Menace or The Revenge of the Sith, the so-called prequels that are underestimated by a superficial and naive part of the SW fan-base.
The very thing that you are complaining about... that's what you are doing with the new sequel trilogy.

Look, I get that these movies may not be everyone's cup of tea. But, I firmly believe that they feel more like the SW that I know and love than the prequels ever did.

People need to give up their notions of what THEY think the story should be. Let go of the poorly-handled old EU and just watch with an open mind. The new movies make sense in this wonderful universe. Yes, there are lots of unanswered questions... that tends to happen 2/3 of the way through a story. I, for one, can't wait to see what happens next.
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juliushorst's Avatar


juliushorst
01.16.2018 , 05:57 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
Have you seen the Prequels? Disney has been rehabilitating Star Wars after Lucas himself gave us a taste of what his vision for the property amounted to.
Actually the sequel trilogy so far made me enjoy prequels a bit more. Sequels are better acted and a lot more appealing in terms of visuals, but I can't find anything else they excel at.
- Both prequels and sequels have main characters that are rather hard to like and act stupid most of the time,
- Prequels present new era, hinted in the OT and give wider galactic context to what happens with the main cast; sure having some sort of political thriller would've been better than having long senate speeches, but I still like it more than 'there was some New Republic and it was blown up, now let's shot some TIEs and ride some horses'.
- Villain in the prequels is actually smart and fun to watch due to actor's performance.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlienEyeTX View Post
Let go of the poorly-handled old EU and just watch with an open mind.
Out of curiosity, how much of it have you read? I read almost everything (excluding WEG RPG books and some young readers novels) and I find the EU much more appealing than the new movies.
I'm trying to take it with an open mind. Sort of liked Rebels, really liked new Thrawn book and can't wait for new installment of this series so it's just the new trilogy I don't enjoy that much.