Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.05.2018 , 11:31 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
FACEPALM..... you are missing the point


Sigh... the point is if you call Rey a Mary Sue for not having training or flying the falcon or using force powers and NOT call out Luke for the SAME THINGS. Then it is since she is a woman.
Wrong you are missing the point that there was 3 years in between Luke in ANH and TESB. As I previously stated and that IS canon. Also, pointed out that he had that much time to practice on his own. After working with Ben. And no, it was also answered by canon that it was more than a day of training with Yoda as well, as you tried to proclaim.

As a matter of fact, I went and rewatched TESB even Yoda says "no more will I teach you today" nearly at the start of his training. Proving it was more than a day so already wrong, the only question is how long but your proven wrong "day" theory is already shot.

*addition for edit*
Also when Luke is pleading with Yoda to train him Yoda says he was "too old," to which Luke replied, "But I have learned so much already." Could not really say that in context if he had not learned more than what Ben had taught him. Again, 3 years. Unless he was lying to Yoda with Ben's force ghost being there.

Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
Who taught Luke how to use Force Pull in between ANH and TES?
Have you even watched these movies??
For starters... lets not forget this is the second movie he uses it after 3 years of being able to also train on his own... Rey uses it in TFA without training with anyone But whatever, I see you dismissed that, or over looked it. Again, useing her power over Ben... but LOLz amirite?

1) I did not bring anything up about piloting. Dont inject that into my argument. They can both be skilled/good/whatever. I don't care and that never bothered me.
2) Vader almost killed Luke, Had the other tiefighter not hit him because of Solo, he would have.
3) Not only did Luke spend actual time with masters that wanted to teach instead of running into caves, he had years to reflect and build on what he was taught between ANH and TESB. Also, he got dismembered when he fought Vader.
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
Ummm what? No she didn't? Are you refering to when she mind melded with Kylo? Because she didn't use the power he did. She just saw the fear in him.

As for mind control? are you talking about the storm trooper she used the Jedi Mind trick on? Because she didn't read his thoughts.
She did both of these in TFA... both of them. Making the trooper unlock her and also reading Kylos mind. This is one of the reasons people thought she must be a Skywalker in fan theory. Or the fact the Skywalker lightsaber went to her over Kylo... I mean. yeah.

That is it. I am done. I am not going to defend that this movie sucks because I believe the plot is lame. But you guys have to learn that just because something is diverse, does not then by default mean it is a good story, regardless of who the protagonist is. Shaming someone for not liking the story because you automatically believe they must be biased against women for doing so is stupid. Never thinking that maybe, they actually have reasons for not liking it that do not have to do with gender. Alien had a female protagonist and is one of the most recognized Sci-Fi brands out there. But that does not fit the paradigm you want to paint now does it? But yeah, lets just hate on some starwars because there is a girl with a lightsaber. I know plenty of movies that suck that have a male protagonist. Am I then sexist against men? I mean the logic to that thought process is just dumb. Instead of believing someone does not like the plot/story you guys automatically think they must be sexist for doing so? I am almost embarrassed to even participate in this nonsense.
3 server merges and a transfer later...
Kinrath Spider -> Fatman -> Pot5 -> Shadowlands -> Star Forge
GM of <Blue Milk Dairy Farmers>
Elite Warlord Doze - Jugg / Elite Warlord Bigolcritties - Sorc

jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
01.06.2018 , 12:18 AM | #22
FACEPALM... you dont' even bother reading.

It doesn't matter if it was 20 years inbetween ANH and TESB there was NO ONE TO TRAIN LUKE!

The day statement about Luke on Degobah was hyperbolie. The point is we see the most important parts of his training, the cave, feeling the force and so on. He is never trained in Lightsaber combat or attacking force powers ie force choke and so fourth.

I brought up piloting because its one of the things people like to claim is proof she is a Mary Sue. If you concede that then fine we can move on.

Yes Rey uses Force pull and beats a dying angry sith who can't even stand up. Whats your point?

I see you avoided the question on how Luke beat Vader in ROTJ so.... good job on that.

Quote:
Or the fact the Skywalker lightsaber went to her over Kylo... I mean. yeah.
did you even read the OP post?

Quote:
I am not going to defend that this movie sucks because I believe the plot is lame.
TFA is the SAME PLOT AS A NEW HOPE!!!! That's the whole freaking point its a soft reboot. This is why people are shaming you.

Quote:
Alien had a female protagonist and is one of the most recognized Sci-Fi brands out there.
taken straight out of the MRA talking points.

You're a fan of Saragon of Akkad aren't you?

and again BLOODLINES DO NOT MATER IN STAR WARS! That has 0 determination with how strong you are with the force.

i'll say this one more time.

The things you criticize about TFA are the EXACT SAME THINGS IN THE OT! EVEN THE PLOT IS THE SAME. So you look like a hypocrite for saying TFA is bad for those reasons.

"General Forums you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy, we must use caution"

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.06.2018 , 01:03 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
FACEPALM... you dont' even bother reading.

It doesn't matter if it was 20 years inbetween ANH and TESB there was NO ONE TO TRAIN LUKE!
Are you saying if you train a child to ride a bike, they cant learn to do stunts on their own? the logic does not float. He was shown the "basics" and was obviously learning over the 3 years he had away from Kenobi.

Kenobi showed Luke the force... showed him how to reach out. Showed him he could even use it to predict things and how to feel objects using it. Then had three years to play with it. He also told Yoda he had learned so much... this was AFTER 3 years past from Kenobi's death. A re you insinuating he did not learn anything on his own during those 3 years?

This entire TFA to TLJ takes a couple weeks... if that. Then you are deflecting the fact that it was Rey who hurt Kylo and over powered him for his own grandfather's lightsaber. And used it against him. Not to mention used mind tricks on a trooper... I mean. lol!! It is like she just found out she has the force last week.
3 server merges and a transfer later...
Kinrath Spider -> Fatman -> Pot5 -> Shadowlands -> Star Forge
GM of <Blue Milk Dairy Farmers>
Elite Warlord Doze - Jugg / Elite Warlord Bigolcritties - Sorc

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.06.2018 , 08:43 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
This entire TFA to TLJ takes a couple weeks... if that. Then you are deflecting the fact that it was Rey who hurt Kylo and over powered him for his own grandfather's lightsaber. And used it against him. Not to mention used mind tricks on a trooper... I mean. lol!! It is like she just found out she has the force last week.
I don't mean to be rude, but from these lines I can clearly see that you didn't read the theory but just saw that the tone is not negative about the Last Jedi and started repeating what you already have in numerous other threads. I don't mean this as a personal attack of course, but I had hoped you would take the time to go over what I have written in the OP.

As I explained elaborately in the OP, Rey is able to use mind tricks and such due to the fact the Force is manipulating her to be as strong as she is in order to be able to stand against Kylo. She is a tool being used by the Force itself to eliminate all Dark Side users from the galaxy in order to return the balance to the Force. The fact that the Force is in balance when there are no Dark Siders in the galaxy has been both confirmed by canon as well as legends material. The conflict between Light and Dark is of a cyclical nature as stated by the Last Jedi visual dictionary. That means that the Dark Side rises and the Light rises in tandem to meet it, literally as Snoke said in the movie. It is something no one but the Force itself has control over, this including Rey's aptitude and strength in the Force. The only reason she is as strong and seemingly trained as she is, is because the Force itself wills her to be such.

Quote:
"I fear nothing, [...] All is as the Force wills it." - Chirrut ╬mwe in Rogue One
Had Kylo Ren remained Ben Solo and not fallen to the Dark Side, had Snoke never risen to power or existed after the fall of Palpatine and the Empire, then Rey would never have been as strong as she was in TFA and TLJ because there would be no reason for the Force to intervene as there would be no Dark Siders disturbing the balance in the galaxy and the Force. Very likely Rey would have had some strength in the Force and perhaps she would have been discovered by Luke during his travels and trained under him, just like normal Jedi did in the past. The situation would have been normal then. However, this is not the case, Snoke may not be around anymore but Kylo and the Knights of Ren are very much around and followers of the Dark Side. As long as they exist and corrupt the Force by using it selfishly, then the Force will manipulate the entire galaxy in order to correct this imbalance. It will awaken connections to the Force in people who previously had no attunement to it, it will give strength and aptitude in others like with Rey, it will manipulate an entire faction to arise in war to battle the Dark Side users. That is why Rey is so strong and skilled in using the Force, the Force is manipulating her insticts and if you think about it, when a Jedi dies their essence becomes one with the Force. That means the Force is saturated with the experiences of thousands upon thousands of Jedi, therefore the Force being able to plant those experiences within Rey's mind and subconcious, enabling her to use the Force on an instinctual level rather than being trained to use it.
Quote:
"All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now." - The spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn, communing with Yoda
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.06.2018 , 09:06 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I don't mean to be rude, but from these lines I can clearly see that you didn't read the theory but just saw that the tone is not negative about the Last Jedi and started repeating what you already have in numerous other threads.
Um, you know, the theory is also that people dont just not like the movie because of plot, it must be because they hate woman. As that has been the crux of the debate. Can you agree that you can like/dislike this movie based simply on the plot and story? Are you capable of admitting that?

It seems to be that in order for you guys to accept that people dont like the movie... then the people that dislike it must be misogynists. This is the logic I see. So the woman who hate it are also misogynists? I mean... yeah. I guess women who dislikes it are allowed to not like it based on the plot but guys are not? For guys it must be because they hate women?
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
As I explained elaborately in the OP, Rey is able to use mind tricks and such due to the fact the Force is manipulating her to be as strong as she is in order to be able to stand against Kylo. She is a tool being used by the Force itself to eliminate all Dark Side users from the galaxy in order to return the balance to the Force.
I had a lot more typed out but it started looking like a wall of text. So I will just say this about the plot.

TL;DR
So Rey, can literally rest assured that she does not need to train or anything as the force will just continue making her stronger by default to beat up on Kylo. Heck of a plot there.

Ole Kylo can hit the gym everyday, but Rey will also be benefiting from his work. I mean, lol I can not go along with this trash.
3 server merges and a transfer later...
Kinrath Spider -> Fatman -> Pot5 -> Shadowlands -> Star Forge
GM of <Blue Milk Dairy Farmers>
Elite Warlord Doze - Jugg / Elite Warlord Bigolcritties - Sorc

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.06.2018 , 09:09 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
Um, you know, the theory is also that people dont just not like the movie because of plot, it must be because they hate woman.
You again begin about the subject of gender while completely ignoring everything I wrote below. That means one of two things, either you are so focused on this specific issue that you don't see anything else or that you have no counterarguments to bring against my theory and therefore latch on to other stuff that derail the subject. I ask you again, please, take a look at the theory and respond to that, I have provided in my previous post something of a TLDR version of the OP, so that you won't have to read all of that. I urge you to set aside your crusade for just one bit and focus on the subject at hand.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.06.2018 , 10:10 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
You again begin about the subject of gender while completely ignoring everything I wrote below. That means one of two things, either you are so focused on this specific issue that you don't see anything else or that you have no counterarguments to bring against my theory and therefore latch on to other stuff that derail the subject. I ask you again, please, take a look at the theory and respond to that, I have provided in my previous post something of a TLDR version of the OP, so that you won't have to read all of that. I urge you to set aside your crusade for just one bit and focus on the subject at hand.
And you are ignoring that was a targeted attack against people that did not like the movie. I said I would not bring it up again unless someone else did... And they did.

So... who is on a crusade? Also I asked:

Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
Can you agree that you can like/dislike this movie based simply on the plot and story? Are you capable of admitting that?
3 server merges and a transfer later...
Kinrath Spider -> Fatman -> Pot5 -> Shadowlands -> Star Forge
GM of <Blue Milk Dairy Farmers>
Elite Warlord Doze - Jugg / Elite Warlord Bigolcritties - Sorc

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.06.2018 , 10:18 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
And you are ignoring that was a targeted attack against people that did not like the movie. I said I would not bring it up again unless someone else did... And they did.

So... who is on a crusade? Also I asked if you if:
Absolutely, if you found the story and plot of the Last Jedi to be bad then sure, that is your right. Everyone has their own taste and perspectives, but neither mine or yours are superior to the other. Those who dislike the Last Jedi based on plot and story are no more right than those who loved the Last Jedi based on plot and story. It is up to each individual to determine whether they like or dislike the Last Jedi, but no one can claim to have the one true superior opinion.

I am not attacking anyone, I am simple trying to force this thread back onto the intended rails, which was a lore discussion of what has been stated in the OP. For all I care at this point Rey was a Hutt and therefore genderless or a hermaphrodite. All I want is people to discuss the points made in the OP and my theory instead of the constant debate about what is underneath Rey's pants.

Therefore I urge everyone to stop referencing or talking about Rey's gender and please focus on the theory as described in the OP. I am not going to ask a thousand times for this thread to be put back onto its rails.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.06.2018 , 10:28 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Absolutely, if you found the story and plot of the Last Jedi to be bad then sure, that is your right. Everyone has their own taste and perspectives, but neither mine or yours are superior to the other.
That was it. That was my only point I was trying to make.
And again, I will drop the issue as long as nobody else brings it up.
I 100% respect your right to like the story of this movie as well.
I do not agree with your reasons and you do not agree with mine and that is 100% OK. There is no need to try to make up petty personal accusations if we can all agree to look at it in this light that neither view is superior and are personal to the opinion of the individual.
3 server merges and a transfer later...
Kinrath Spider -> Fatman -> Pot5 -> Shadowlands -> Star Forge
GM of <Blue Milk Dairy Farmers>
Elite Warlord Doze - Jugg / Elite Warlord Bigolcritties - Sorc

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
01.06.2018 , 11:45 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
It has nothing to do with her being a woman. I have no idea why people say that other than to undermine the argument on the other side of the table in attempt to shame and silence them.

Was there an uprising over Satele Shan? No. Know why? Because her story was explained and made more sense then Rey's. However, Satele and Kotor in general are not canon. Rey is.

The problem with Rey is the Mary Sue extravaganza she displays. Jedi and Sith (who cares what gender they are?) would train for years. As stated before many time, Anakin himself, fathered by the force, still trained under Obi, Quigon and Yoda. Even then, we see how Duuko pwns him the first time they fight even after years of training. Had Yoda not jumped in, Anakin and Obi would be dead.

Yet this person, who has no lightsaber fighting skills ( a staff is not the same- especially when fighting a skilled and trained force user), who was never taught how to use the force to be telepathic and make people do things they would not normally do... just knows how to do these things with no training or instruction in the force - because that is how the story of a Mary Sue works.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
"Mary Sue type characters do exist in both fan fiction and canon. The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds. "

It is a joke and a disgrace to the plots of the former films.

So please, stop saying it is people hating on woman as an excuse to dismiss arguments as to why Rey is catching so much slack over it. Her gender has 0 to do with it.

Also this.



I personally liked the movie. TLJ is the first one I can say without question that I absolutely hate. I have saw them all, including the OT at the theater.
You still fail to see the real reasons here...

In A New Hope Luke was a farmboy who took down the death star all by himself and also using the force to disrubt his fathers attempts to blast him off the sky.

In Empire Strikes back he had some training under Yoda, but still was far from a Jedi and yet went to fight Vader and he kinda lost there.

Here is where the stories are different. Rey beats Kylo Ren, Luke lost a hand in duel vs his father.

If you watch the TFA again, the director insists to make us see that Ren is bleeding and is the main reason why he cannot defeat her. But people failed to see this and rushed to call Rey's char Mary Sue.

Again, her natural ability with the force is nothing new to star wars. Maybe she is just natural talent...

The Last Jedi failed to explain the reasons behind her affinity to the force properly and after all that build up and mystery around that we hot from Abrams in TFA is turned into dust in this last movie.

This is the reason why I am glad that Abrams is coming back to EP9 as he made a real star wars movie with TFA despite the " ep4 ripoff" and concept.

Let's hope he can fix some of the mess around Rey in the new movie.

I repeat myself. I still dont think there is any difference between luke and rey as trainees in the force. The problems come from how their stories are told.