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[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force

jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
01.05.2018 , 02:15 PM | #11
she is not a Mary Sue that's dumb. yes most of the hate is because she is a woman. How can i prove this you ask? Easy because they are accepting of Luke Skywalker who had just as much training as Rey did. yet totally accept him.

As for Satele Shan why wasn't there an uprising? Because she isn't main stream. She is also not a main character. People are angry because a woman is the lead in Star Wars. They were also angry at Jinn Orso in Rogue one.

Luke actually had less training then Rey.

Luke had 0 melee combat experience, he gets his butt kicked by Sandpeople.

Rey grew up on a hostile planet and learned how to defend her self with a staff. Now you will claim "A staff isn't a lightsaber" Actually a staff is closer to a lightsaber then a sword as it doesn't matter which side you hit it with and you don't have to worry about blunting your blade.

The only Jedi training Luke got from Obi Wan was a 2 min session on the MF teaching him to reach out and feel the force. How do I know? Watch the scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY

That's the only training he gets. He feels the force once and thats it. Later on Hoth he is able to use force pull ON HIS FIRST ATTEMPT and get the lightsaber with out even knowing that ablity exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6o2WX4crxg

Rey before she uses any powers she is "Mind melded" with Kylo seeing everything in his head.

Not to mention who knows what stories she heard about Luke and the Force growing up.

Flying

Luke did fly a T-16 and talked about he wasn't such a bad pilot. However in his first time flying a military X-wing he out fly's Darth Vader.

Rey is also a pilot she mentions this several times she just never flew off world. She also talks about how she worked on the Falcon. When she does fly she is not an expert she crashes it 3 times trying to escape the tie fighters.

Not to metion they hit her A LOT. and that is with flying low to the ground to confuse their sensors. Meanwhile Luke outflys vader and a whole squadron of Tie fighters in his first millitary assualt while dodging canon fire from the surface.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0


So if Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke is at least twice the Mary Sue she is.


Do we even need to talk about how 8 year old Anakin used the force to fly pod racers as well as fly a Naboo Starfighter, take out an entire fleet of Droid Fighters?


So the reason why people who claim that "Rey is a Mary Sue" are just hating on her because she is a woman is because they are being incredibly hypocritical.

Edit i forgot to add on Luke's powers

His training with Yoda. It lasted 1 day. He learned how to balance rocks. That's it.

In ROTJ he uses Force Choke on Jaba's guards where do you think he learned that? Do you think Yoda taught him that?

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Kajuratus's Avatar


Kajuratus
01.05.2018 , 02:38 PM | #12
That was an amazing read, and a theory I quite like. Only recently with the release of The Last Jedi have I been thinking about what "the balance of the force" actually means (as opposed to the "good guys always win" trope), and considering Snoke's quote, "I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the Light would rise" I assumed that meant the force actually wanted to balance both light and dark. In defence of the "light must equal dark" theory though, it makes the Rule of Two look even more impressive, considering that if Darth Bane managed to figure out that the force would strive to have a balance of light and dark in the galaxy, having only 2 members of your belief system would make you ridiculously overpowered against your polar opposite organisation.
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.05.2018 , 02:53 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
But have you read the theory? Because the theory comes from the perspectives that in-universe characters had of the Force, Kreia being a prime example. It's not a new view that was created by Disney but actually existed long before Disney acquired Star Wars. I am not saying that my theory has more weight because it is based on views from Legends, but if those hundreds of Star Wars fans don't agree with Rey and how she gained strength because supposedly it would contradict previously established lore, then I wonder if they have seen the lore correctly previously or had their own view of it that was incorrect.
Is Kreia canon?
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AlienEyeTX
01.05.2018 , 03:26 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
she is not a Mary Sue that's dumb. yes most of the hate is because she is a woman. How can i prove this you ask? Easy because they are accepting of Luke Skywalker who had just as much training as Rey did. yet totally accept him.

As for Satele Shan why wasn't there an uprising? Because she isn't main stream. She is also not a main character. People are angry because a woman is the lead in Star Wars. They were also angry at Jinn Orso in Rogue one.

Luke actually had less training then Rey.

Luke had 0 melee combat experience, he gets his butt kicked by Sandpeople.

Rey grew up on a hostile planet and learned how to defend her self with a staff. Now you will claim "A staff isn't a lightsaber" Actually a staff is closer to a lightsaber then a sword as it doesn't matter which side you hit it with and you don't have to worry about blunting your blade.

The only Jedi training Luke got from Obi Wan was a 2 min session on the MF teaching him to reach out and feel the force. How do I know? Watch the scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY

That's the only training he gets. He feels the force once and thats it. Later on Hoth he is able to use force pull ON HIS FIRST ATTEMPT and get the lightsaber with out even knowing that ablity exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6o2WX4crxg

Rey before she uses any powers she is "Mind melded" with Kylo seeing everything in his head.

Not to mention who knows what stories she heard about Luke and the Force growing up.

Flying

Luke did fly a T-16 and talked about he wasn't such a bad pilot. However in his first time flying a military X-wing he out fly's Darth Vader.

Rey is also a pilot she mentions this several times she just never flew off world. She also talks about how she worked on the Falcon. When she does fly she is not an expert she crashes it 3 times trying to escape the tie fighters.

Not to metion they hit her A LOT. and that is with flying low to the ground to confuse their sensors. Meanwhile Luke outflys vader and a whole squadron of Tie fighters in his first millitary assualt while dodging canon fire from the surface.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0


So if Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke is at least twice the Mary Sue she is.


Do we even need to talk about how 8 year old Anakin used the force to fly pod racers as well as fly a Naboo Starfighter, take out an entire fleet of Droid Fighters?


So the reason why people who claim that "Rey is a Mary Sue" are just hating on her because she is a woman is because they are being incredibly hypocritical.

Edit i forgot to add on Luke's powers

His training with Yoda. It lasted 1 day. He learned how to balance rocks. That's it.

In ROTJ he uses Force Choke on Jaba's guards where do you think he learned that? Do you think Yoda taught him that?
Those are some fantastic points. I agree with what you're saying. I think that people forgot or are too young to even know what the OT experience was like without any EU distractions.

As for training, I always have imagined that a bit happened off screen. Not a lot with Obi-Wan, but maybe with Yoda. How long was Luke on Dagobah? Either way, not long enough to change your point about what he learned from Yoda.

When you look at it, Rey hasn't done too much with the Force. Not like some have you believe, anyway. And, as has been discussed, the Force is something that can be used naturally, once you know and believe that you can. The training is just for control and focus.
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jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
01.05.2018 , 04:22 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by AlienEyeTX View Post
Those are some fantastic points. I agree with what you're saying. I think that people forgot or are too young to even know what the OT experience was like without any EU distractions.

As for training, I always have imagined that a bit happened off screen. Not a lot with Obi-Wan, but maybe with Yoda. How long was Luke on Dagobah? Either way, not long enough to change your point about what he learned from Yoda.

When you look at it, Rey hasn't done too much with the Force. Not like some have you believe, anyway. And, as has been discussed, the Force is something that can be used naturally, once you know and believe that you can. The training is just for control and focus.
yeah i have the same feelings about training in the force. In fact if we look at the OT and the training Luke did recieve it was all about control.

As for Degobah well it all depends how long you think Leia and Han were traveling to Cloud City. Were they stuck flying there for a week? with the same clothes ? How long would it have taken for Boba Fett to call the Emprie and have them set up the trap? We only see a day in the training of Luke and the most we see him do is move some rocks before he heads off to Cloud City.

So it coudln't have been that long.

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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.05.2018 , 04:23 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
Is Kreia canon?
I wish she was, but the new canon does reaffirm several of her beliefs and views on the Force. A prime example would be the description of the battle between light and dark being of a cyclical nature that can be found in the visual dictionary of the Last Jedi in Luke's chapter. I have linked an image of that bit in the visual dictionary in my OP.
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MadDutchman's Avatar


MadDutchman
01.05.2018 , 06:10 PM | #17
I tend to agree with the theory in general, though it should be mentioned that it gets a bit more complicated than just light and dark.

Ex. Bendu, "The one in the middle"
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.05.2018 , 07:20 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I wish she was, but the new canon does reaffirm several of her beliefs and views on the Force. A prime example would be the description of the battle between light and dark being of a cyclical nature that can be found in the visual dictionary of the Last Jedi in Luke's chapter. I have linked an image of that bit in the visual dictionary in my OP.
If it is not canon... you cant really justify any talking points on the force by it.

My opinion is that the movie is now contradictory of what it was... for the last 40 years.

Canon stuff is the stuff I try to go by. Now it seems the canon is against the canon. There is a lot of entertainment value in the EU... I am not saying that at all. But I think this topic would be better served, if going for facts, if we all stick to canon.

Also, OP, I will apologize in advance, but again, someone is throwing out stuff about "dont like the movie because they hate women" nonsense.
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.05.2018 , 07:36 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
she is not a Mary Sue that's dumb. yes most of the hate is because she is a woman. How can i prove this you ask? Easy because they are accepting of Luke Skywalker who had just as much training as Rey did. yet totally accept him.

As for Satele Shan why wasn't there an uprising? Because she isn't main stream. She is also not a main character. People are angry because a woman is the lead in Star Wars. They were also angry at Jinn Orso in Rogue one.
Again, reflecting away from the issues I have already brought up and have explained why it is lame to propagate people not likening the movie because of the lead being a woman. I have also agreed not to comment about it unless someone else brings it up again and here we go… Sorry OP, it seems some of the people in agreement with you can not comprehend that other people just think the story is garbage and would much rather insist that it is because gasp… the woman. Even though it has already been explained, in great detail, how that is not at all the case. Also, I have also said I liked RO. So there goes that theory. I have it on BR and My daughter dressed up as Jinn for Holloween. But yeah, GO PATRIARCHY!

The most popular rants on youtube about this movie have NOTHING to do with Rey being a woman, it is not even mentioned. Misogyny is being thrown out to silence people who just think the story is crap… as if that is an impossibility.

So you can keep preaching about how that is the reason in your echo chamber. I ( and many many others) have already explained it and our issues with it and none of the issues have to do with her being a woman. But I must, for some reason, keep arguing against this tired and baseless accusation. Or you guys could just stop regurgitating it. Not to mention, my post alone is proof that it is not the argument. Yet here we are… again.

Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
Luke actually had less training then Rey.
This is laughable. I would much more prefer to play this game than talk with people incapable of accepting that other people just did not like the story. Or people that thought the lore was misused or that they treated Luke poorly or that there are ridicules plot holes or superman Leiah.

Here is the short and dirty...
1)In “The Force Awakens”, Rey has already used a saber - beating someone trained from childhood by an actual master Jedi. She was able to use telepathy to read someone thoughts and control them. Summon a lightsaber to herself, over powering someone in the actual Skywalker bloodline for it. - this is just in TFA, not even getting into this one. As it does not matter, now we know she was a nobody who is a Mary Sue. At Least Anakin's dad was the force. I mean... yeah, that is the Skywalker bloodline.
Saber proficient, telepathy, telekinesis and besting another actually trained force user… this is before even training with another force user.
2)Luke didn’t grow up on a harsh planet? LMAO… did you forget where he grew up and who ran the planet?
3) A lightsaber is used far more closely related to a sword than a staff… to suggest otherwise is just… whatever. This is just not even debatable. Fighting styles, stances etc. just wow
4) Luke did not out fly Vader. Vader killed all his wingmen and was knocked out of the “canyon” by another tie fighter. Luke was about to be killed by Vader. When was the last time you saw TESB? How you get he out flew Vader is beyond me. Also, Obi was using his force ghost to help guide Luke. But whatever.
5) You jump across 3 movies in order to talk about how Mary Sue Luke is.
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
Luke had 0 melee combat experience, he gets his butt kicked by Sandpeople.
6) Yet at this same time, you want to call him a Mary Sue. LOL. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
His training with Yoda. It lasted 1 day. He learned how to balance rocks. That's it.
LOL um no but I am willing to look at your source for this.
Here is one I like to use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1A7DO_3I1k

His training was going on during the time it took the Falcon to get to Bespin from Hoth, travelling without a hyperdrive. That should have taken more than a week, especially considering that Han's line "it's pretty far, but I think we can make it"

But if you show canon that says he trained in a day...



Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
Rey before she uses any powers she is "Mind melded" with Kylo seeing everything in his head.
Really? so why did she need to have ANYTHING explained about what happened between Luke and Ben? Why did she not know or see who her parents are? Why didn't she just see all of the plans for what the FO was doing? The gaping plot hole you are trying to open immediately falls apart when trying to make any sense of it without Olympic style mental gymnastics.

So so many things you are missing in the scope of your arguement. The timelines on the movies I would say is the worst. Like mentioning Luke using choke in RoTJ. This was about a year after he had fought Vader. He also constructed a lightsaber during this time which undoubtedly also meant he practiced force abilities. He got to see and feel how powerful his dad had become and Yoda and Obi were free and able to devote time to his training.
It goes... TPM (10y) AOTC (3y) ROTS (19y) ANH (3y) ESB (1y) ROTJ (30y) TFA (no time gap) TLJ - In case you missed it, there was no time gap (the only one in the series without time allotted between films) between TLJ and TFA compared to 3 years between ANH and TESB. So claiming he had less training is again, laughable. At the end of TLJ... she had a couple days compared to Luke's YEARS.

Anyways. I am off to play the game bro. I am not going to debate ridicules accusations about sexism when people just think the story is garbage and some of you just can not accept that answer. It must be the patriarchy!
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jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
01.05.2018 , 09:08 PM | #20
FACEPALM..... you are missing the point
Quote:
"The most popular rants on youtube about this movie have NOTHING to do with Rey being a woman, it is not even mentioned."
Sigh... the point is if you call Rey a Mary Sue for not having training or flying the falcon or using force powers and NOT call out Luke for the SAME THINGS. Then it is since she is a woman.


Who taught Luke how to use Force Pull in between ANH and TES?

As for Degohbah... yeah that's not canon despite what a youtube video says. His source is a children's book that is non canon.

So about the trip to cloud city. Let me ask you this. Why didn't the empire ambush them in deep space while Boba Fett was following them?


You missed the point about Luke's non melee combat skill. We know that Obi wan taught him literarlly 2 minutes of light saber combat. We know Yoda didn't teach him any (that was the entire point of Yoda training him) So how did he get good enough to take on Darth Vader?

Yes he did out fly Vader. to deny it is just stupid. He also survived an assault that only 3 other well trained pilots survived. That's pretty amazing for someone who never flew a combat mission.

But Rey gets shade because she crashed the falcon 4 times and took a ton of damage.

Quote:
Like mentioning Luke using choke in RoTJ. This was about a year after he had fought Vader.
and you are missing the point again its not about time. He could have 50 years it doesn't matter WHO TAUGHT HIM HOW TO DO IT! That is the point.

Quote:
compared to 3 years between ANH and TESB . So claiming he had less training is again laughable
again. NO ONE WAS AROUND TO TRAIN HIM!

Obi wan was dead and hadn't appeared as a force ghost. Luke didn't know about Yoda so who trained him.


Quote:
" - beating someone trained from childhood by an actual master Jedi"
She beat an aprrentance her own age who was just shot by a Bowcaster a weapon we have never seen anyone survive. He is bleeding out, already got sliced in the arm by Fin and his goal wasn't to kill her but take her alive.

So yeah she better have won.

Let me ask you this then how did Luke beat Vader? Vader had been a true sith master who has DECADES of actual combat experience while Luke again never had any formal training and only fought one other person in lightsaber combat. So how did Luke win then?


Quote:
"She was able to use telepathy to read someone thoughts and control them"
Ummm what? No she didn't? Are you refering to when she mind melded with Kylo? Because she didn't use the power he did. She just saw the fear in him.

As for mind control? are you talking about the storm trooper she used the Jedi Mind trick on? Because she didn't read his thoughts.

Are you drunk or just making stuff up

Quote:
Skywalker bloodline for it
This is the weakest of arguments. There is nothing anywhere in star wars to indicate your bloodline determines how strong you are in the force.

If it did all of the Jedi would have died out since they don't reproduce. Also Ben is only 1/4 Skywalker bloodline. So even if the whole "force bloodline" meant anything he would have been diluted.

Also remember in SWTOR they make a point of bloodlines not being anything Theron Shan Son of Satele Shan, of the Revan blood line? Absolute 0 connection to the force.

So yeah that's an incredibility foolish thing to claim.

Quote:
)Luke didn’t grow up on a harsh planet?
as a farmer, who was cared for by his Aunt and Uncle and watched over and protected by Obi Wan. He even had friends who he went to hang out at Taschi Station. Not a harsh life.

Rey was esentially a slave and didn't have anyone to protect her. She had to scavage parts just for food to survive.


Quote:
I am not going to debate ridicules accusations about sexism when people just think the story is garbage and some of you just can not accept that answer.
again you are missing the point. You don't have to like the new Star Wars. The point is when you say you hate it and your reasons are for the same things that appear in all of Star Wars and you accept those points then it must be something.

Like people complaining about the Bombers in TLJ with out remembering there were Tie Bombers dropping bombs on an Asteroid in TESB.

It's like saying I love whisky because i love the taste of alcohol but I hate beer because it has too much alcohol.



Edit: Also as the OP said you don't need training to use the force, this is also show in Season 2 of the Clone Wars (still canon btw) where Wee Dunn and Roo-Roo Page babies who can't even speak but can use force powers. Who trained them?

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