Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Juggernaut/Guardian

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Juggernaut/Guardian

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.03.2018 , 07:07 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by clocknane View Post
Logically speaking, how does that have NOTHING to do with the spec? You are basically saying your damage is purely based on everyone else being "bad." You are basically saying the class is ok because everyone else is bad.

DPS survival is not great, but not terrible so tweaks to dps survival should be minimal, otherwise, they become too tanky.
Firstly, Im playing a pure dps spec Jugg (rage). It is supposed to do near the top of the DPS.
Second, the class is not fine, it is severely lacking in mobility compared to every other class in the game
Third, the spec does not need any extra survivability because it is fine if you have a clue about DCD
Fourth, there are too many people playing skanktanks and I can out DPS them all (as it should be)
Five, mobility, again, It is the slowest class to play and anyone worth their salt should be able to kite me.
Six, players are stupid when they engage me. They hit me with reflect up, endure Bastion up and try to face tank me. Im sorry to say they are just dumb and that is a major reason Im topping the dps, especially when you consider Im playing with 290ms ping.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.03.2018 , 07:12 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by countdemons View Post
You can tell the OP is a sorc or a PT and is mad his class is not god-like anymore. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Ummm, when was Sorc OP in the last two years? You have more waaaaaas than the OP

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.03.2018 , 02:19 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MackPol View Post
Now tanks normally (unless exceptional aoe heavy game ) will not top the dmg chart. If they do then other dds in the match are inexperienced. This should be beaten by decent dd players. Of course depending on the match. So maybe if you see Guardians topping dmg it will likely be Vigilnce with ez and good dot spread. Same player will always do more dmg on Vigilance then tank.
Another thing is that there are dd classes that have arguably better survivability then tanks say Merc and Sniper and maybe Mara too.
Tanking involves taunting, guarding, providing dmg reduction, peeling, applying trauma, interrupting healer, applying slow to control the area, ccing targets and surprisingly doing damage to help get a kill. If someone is doing that and plays a tank tree they are a tank regardless of the gear.
I have been saying this for literally a year now. They don't care to listen to reason. They can't brain dead monkey smash everything, they don't care.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
Shield (and thus absorb), on the other hand, has its uses in PVP. Each attack (M/R and F/T) that does not deal internal or elemental damage (most direct and aoe attacks in the game) includes shield in the "hit type" roll, which defines if the damage is normal, critical or shielded. If the roll hits within the crit chance the damage will be crit, if it hits withing the shield chance, it will be shielded. If it hits in neither it will be normal damage. If attacker's crit + defender's shield is greater than covering all 100% of the roll, then crit overlaps shield. That means if I am a tank with 60% shield (dark ward active) and my enemy is a dps with 45% crit, that means that all non-internal/elemental attacks have 45% chance to crit, and if they fail to crit they will definitely be shielded, which means 50-60% less damage in addition to the existing reduction from armor. So these stats (present in augments and enhancements only) do help PVP survivability.

I run a tank with tanky enhancements and Lethal mods 54B. I know that means I have twice the Power stat of a fully "tanky" tank (at the cost of meaningless 6% of def only ), but I don't consider myself "skank" because I use the same gear to Main Tank all possible PVE content including some NiMs, and the lower def is not felt in there. I an tell you from expirenece and experiments that a tank geared like that has about twice the survivability of a skank, at the cost of ~15% crit, that indeed reduce my burst, but let me fight longer without healing without having to bail or die, so the end is the same damage.

Full tank gear in PVP is indeed junk, but skank isn't the best answer, nor is it the case (probably) when you see non-bads failing to kill a tank. In short, if you see a tank surviving versus many without a healer, they are either all bads or he has tank enhancements. I never got soloed by a full skank and did solo some of them with my gear, so skank isn't that OP.
This is how my pve tank gear is set as well. I still find it less useful than high endurance dps gear. I have more health to survive spikes.

I can't speak for the theory because crap if I know.

I do know from experience comparing the setup you use to an endurance stacked dps set, I prefer the endurance.

By the way, I have soloed full tanks as a skank. It was a sin when I got stuck node guarding. He even tried to stealth cap me and when I called it no one came so I had to deal with him myself.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.03.2018 , 05:42 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
By the way, I have soloed full tanks as a skank. It was a sin when I got stuck node guarding. He even tried to stealth cap me and when I called it no one came so I had to deal with him myself.
Probably skill more than anything. If I can solo 3 at the same time on my Rage Jugg, you know they are crap. Low skill sealing is the new norm in regs. Any good players can global them on any spec or class.

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
01.03.2018 , 06:24 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
This is how my pve tank gear is set as well. I still find it less useful than high endurance dps gear. I have more health to survive spikes.
I realize I forgot to mention the very important fact that I use the tanky enh with the higher endurance version, not the default ones. I use steadfast for shield and vigilant for abs. The crafted version has 220 Endu per piece with a minimal loss of shl/abs and a moderate loss of the useless defense. So the end result is basically like high endurance dps gear but with tank stats. I have 151k hp, 42% shield (effectively 60% with 100% uptimed dark ward) 30% def (because sins have 5%) more than others, and 50% abs (which jumps around 50-60% due to bulwark, and can have +30% for 20s with a cd). Crit is ~30% (comes only from the relics and a few 236 augs which replaced my former fortitude augs) and I don't remember power and mastery, but can say 10k assassinate is really not rare, while taking a railshot from an AP PT for only 390 damage is just as common (and that's without 60% damage reducing force speed) .
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I do know from experience comparing the setup you use to an endurance stacked dps set, I prefer the endurance.
Now that you know all details, tell me if this is still true. I also played full skank from time to time but prefer this (or just being a real DPS)

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
By the way, I have soloed full tanks as a skank. It was a sin when I got stuck node guarding. He even tried to stealth cap me and when I called it no one came so I had to deal with him myself.
Doesn't surprise me because :
default tank (with warding mods, or basically the default 248 tank gear) < full skank < endurance skank < endurance lethal-modded tank.
That and the probability that you are skilled
Of course, nothing is really rock-paper-scissor. I solo killed darkness with deception, deception with darkness, darkness with darkness and deception with deception. Can't, therefore, use the "killed this with that" as a measurement, but can tell you that fighting the skank was far harder than fighting a default tank (which ended in the same result but without my deflection on CD, because I didn't bother), and fighting a skank when I was still skank was harder then fighting the skank with my current gear, and in general I don't feel the 15% crit and some extra are worth cutting my def in half. So my Shock can go up to 16k and not 20k, but in return, I take 390 damage and not 4000 far more often

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.03.2018 , 07:02 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
I realize I forgot to mention the very important fact that I use the tanky enh with the higher endurance version, not the default ones. I use steadfast for shield and vigilant for abs. The crafted version has 220 Endu per piece with a minimal loss of shl/abs and a moderate loss of the useless defense. So the end result is basically like high endurance dps gear but with tank stats. I have 151k hp, 42% shield (effectively 60% with 100% uptimed dark ward) 30% def (because sins have 5%) more than others, and 50% abs (which jumps around 50-60% due to bulwark, and can have +30% for 20s with a cd). Crit is ~30% (comes only from the relics and a few 236 augs which replaced my former fortitude augs) and I don't remember power and mastery, but can say 10k assassinate is really not rare, while taking a railshot from an AP PT for only 390 damage is just as common (and that's without 60% damage reducing force speed) .
i run high endurance crafted enhancements as well, because defense is well over the useless point in pve anyway...
What is your endurance sitting at? in my tank gear it's 130k-something. with my skank gear its 150k-something. It might seem pointless but i find i do in fact survive things because of that 20k health.

Also, it's tanking. There's no real ideal stat setup anyway. What works for me might not work for you and vice versa.

I do sort of resent being considered half a dps. I do not play as a dps. I would love for there to be more point to run tank gear.

clocknane's Avatar


clocknane
01.04.2018 , 06:00 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by countdemons View Post
You can tell the OP is a sorc or a PT and is mad his class is not god-like anymore. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Well, enjoy being wrong, because I play neither.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.04.2018 , 06:50 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Sigh I guess I'm here to repeat myself again...

I'm a guardian tank main from way back. Swapped to vigi with 5.0 and the guard going to dps. Swapped back to tank after a miserable match where I died 15 times or something ridiculous. Went to skank when I realized I could use more health and be more survivable without the def/shield/absorb.

Ok background in PvP out of the way.
I despise skanking on pure principle despite participating in it. I am a tank main.

On the issues that keep crawling up: if I'm hopping the damage board it's probably because me and my healer are trying to keep 6 people from node capping and I'm sitting on the node aoeing while my healer buddy is healing me. My aoe isn't exactly killing anyone but I do get substantial damage accumulated from doing this in say, a voidstar where a round can go on a while.

On the survivability front: a tank should be difficult to kill, that is, after all, the point. The single target pressure damage is not what it is in say, vigi. I say this with certainty because I spent a good amount of time maining vigi in WZ and still play it occasionally. My job as a tank is to stay alive, keep my team alive, and drive the enemy team insane trying to kill me so thst my team hopefully gains caps and objectives and thereby wins.

Now what is the solution to skanking and it's popularity? Glad you asked and didn't just mention blanket nerfs to an already poor surviving dps class.

1. Do something about the dps specs survivability.
2. Make tank stats work in PvP.

Together these two issues would ensure that dps players went dps and tank players ran tank gear. In the meantime, let's not talk survivability nerfs on guardians. Because let's do a reality check: the classes that need the survivability nerfs are not the tank capable classes. In fact, given the recent utility fiasco, the dps specs of tank capable classes could use some love. In fact, PT in general could use some love.

Ps the immortal juggernaut title is the name for the tank spec of a juggernaut: immortal. On a guardian it's defense.
You've never wavered in your frankness for skank tanking, always stated that you yourself think it's a bit broken and that you would be happy to stop skank tanking if tank stats were made viable and that the only reason you are skanking is because of the tank stats and that you feel Jugg DPS isn't viable. I've always respected you because of this.

I too must repeat myself. I understand why people stank tank and I don't hold it against anyone, it's a classic between a rock and a hard place. Why they do it makes perfect sense in most cases. Additionally, I understand that alot of times their high damage is from cleaves, aoes, bleeds, ergo some good amount of fluff in there. Where I perhaps differ is that in my opinion, it shouldn't even be mathematically possible for tank specs to put out the kind of numbers we see. Even in arena's I see Skank tanks toping the boards at times and that's four people at most. I understand the notion about the need damage to hold agro, but, isn't that really what taunting is for? I guess what makes it a bit more confusing is that it is being said that a lot of their damage is coming from cleaves and aoes. Why would a tank have that much need for cleaves and AOEs when the major part of their job is simply to hold the bosses agro, adds aren't plentiful enough in boss fights to really make so much aoe damage seem necessary for a tank. That is heresay on my part, I'm not stating it as a fact, it just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, but, if you say tanks need a lot of AOE damage I would certainly defer to you on such a subject.

Where I don't necessarily agree with you is on the issue of DPS Jugg survivability. I can understand the no anti-focus part, that makes perfect sense and I agree wholeheartedly they need something for that. I have suggested many times that perhaps Juggs should be given Force Camouflage for that purpose as Marauders and Juggs already share some same abilities. - I can see Ranked as being difficult for them, but I just don't see Juggs having a hard time surviving in regs. So aside from the anti-focus ability they are lacking and should get addressed, I'm not really sure where the poor survivability comes in. DPS Jugg damage is excellent and they top the boards fairly regularly.

For the record, despite that I do feel Skank tanking is broken and role breaking, I in no way, shape, or form see them as being on the level of Mercs and Snipers "OP". But when you put a skank with a healer working with each other, the survivability is insane. Skank protects the healer so they're taking half damage, they taunt reducing the damage of the enemy by 30%, and the healer keeps them topped off so together they balance each other perfectly. That the skank is putting out a lot of damage as well, while that may be do to cleaves and AOEs, it's still a lot of extra damage their enemies are taking and it's damage that still has to be healed. Tanks shouldn't be a threat to anyone damage wise on the scale that skank tanks are. Given that a lot of the maps force concentrations of players in small areas due to objectives [defending doors from having bombs planted, held boxes in OPG, nodes in many maps, etc. This in turn makes those cleaves and AOEs not really all that circumstantial because they are always going to exist in those maps.

I see a comparison between mercs in that they have too much healing for a DPS role, as Skank Tanks have too much damage for a tank roll. The severity between the two is not the same though. Mercs are worse in terms of severity. - You're two points to fix the situation are spot on. I agree, that's what's needed. Tank stats not working as they should in PVP is completely unfair to tank players.
~ I am Grim.

SWTOR's Public Enemy # 1

Janglor's Avatar


Janglor
01.04.2018 , 09:08 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by clocknane View Post
Basically, every warzone I enter Jugs/Guardian's are tops in damage dealt while having the least amount of deaths. I have also noted whether they are being pocket healed or not and sometimes they are, sometimes they are not, but it really does not seem to matter. It is fairly typical for me to be in one of the 8v8 warzone's where there are usually 6-8 (40-50%?) of the players are jugs/guardians. It is really no secret why there are so many, and if you pvp you know why.

Basically, they are called skanktanks I believe.. tanks with dps gear is what I have been told and they are utterly over tuned/over powered. This really needs to be looked at. Given the situation of these classes, I see more and more pop up. I get the whole if you cannot beat them, join them mentality, but Bioware/EA you really should look into this for the sake of class diversity.

It is basically a one man show out there for the most part. I see Jugs and Guards taking on 5 players or so and lasting way too long which I guess is where the "Immortal Tank" term was coined from. I don't want them nerfed into the ground as every class deserves to be viable, but I do think and I am fairly certain I am not alone in this, they are over the top and have been for quite some time.
Tank stats are worthless in 8v8s (regs) and the two dps jugg specs are pretty awful in any type of ranked or against good teams in either regs or ranked. They just melt. So anyone who wants to main jugg/guardian is pigeon holed into skanking. If a skank tank is top damage in the map, its a direct result of there being no other elite dps players in that map.
STOP RESISTING
Janglor
Bo'Jangles
Diabeetus

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
01.04.2018 , 10:42 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
What is your endurance sitting at? in my tank gear it's 130k-something. with my skank gear its 150k-something. It might seem pointless but i find i do in fact survive things because of that 20k health.
151k but I am an assassin, so I get a little more, I think if you had my exact same gear you would have 148-9k with a guardian. If i understood your gear right, then beside some of your crit/alac being traded into shield/absorb we have the same stats

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Also, it's tanking. There's no real ideal stat setup anyway. What works for me might not work for you and vice versa.
True, though I believe that generally, for optimal defensives versus enemy players (who know how to gear), shield up to 50% is good, then give the rest to abs, and if abs reached 50% too then give the rest to even more Endu. As an assassin, I consider my dark ward as part of my passive shield (because of 100% uptime) so I can afford more absorb rating. If I were to play a PT tank or a jugg who don't have that kind of shield boost, I would take my passive shield up to 47% at least before targeting absorb (as pt maybe even focus shield more because they get constant 25% absorb boosts).
The point is to have shield cover nearly all the hit-type roll range above the attacker's crit chance. Since in PVP, many DPS have around 45% crit that means covering more than 55% shield chance is meaningless against these guys, as crit has a bigger priority than shield in case of overlap in the ranges. [Making shield chance of 70% be just as good as 55% if the enemy has 45% crit). To assassins' the shield goal is reachable, and I the spare 5% shield that I have is for the few classes who go for 40% crit, for tanks like me who have ~30% crit, and for me being lazy and using the exact same gear for PVE hard content. Non-assassins need to run different numbers to reach optimal damage reduction versus players. At least I can tell from expirience is that the end result of a high endu assassin non-skank can hold of a bunch of enemies better than any other possible gear (full tank or endu dps), while still dealing more single target damage than any other full tank and really not so much lower than the fully dpsy ones who have 15% more crit. When AoEs get involved, the gap even becomes lesser when comparing to deception, marksmanship, arsenal, and other single targeters. In fact, it is very likely that if I had an AoE match I would beat several of them. Admittedly can't compete with a good vigi or engi. Though my survivability can compete with them (yes, engi too) easily.