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Juggernaut/Guardian

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Juggernaut/Guardian

clocknane's Avatar


clocknane
01.02.2018 , 03:49 PM | #1
Basically, every warzone I enter Jugs/Guardian's are tops in damage dealt while having the least amount of deaths. I have also noted whether they are being pocket healed or not and sometimes they are, sometimes they are not, but it really does not seem to matter. It is fairly typical for me to be in one of the 8v8 warzone's where there are usually 6-8 (40-50%?) of the players are jugs/guardians. It is really no secret why there are so many, and if you pvp you know why.

Basically, they are called skanktanks I believe.. tanks with dps gear is what I have been told and they are utterly over tuned/over powered. This really needs to be looked at. Given the situation of these classes, I see more and more pop up. I get the whole if you cannot beat them, join them mentality, but Bioware/EA you really should look into this for the sake of class diversity.

It is basically a one man show out there for the most part. I see Jugs and Guards taking on 5 players or so and lasting way too long which I guess is where the "Immortal Tank" term was coined from. I don't want them nerfed into the ground as every class deserves to be viable, but I do think and I am fairly certain I am not alone in this, they are over the top and have been for quite some time.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.02.2018 , 04:48 PM | #2
Sigh I guess I'm here to repeat myself again...

I'm a guardian tank main from way back. Swapped to vigi with 5.0 and the guard going to dps. Swapped back to tank after a miserable match where I died 15 times or something ridiculous. Went to skank when I realized I could use more health and be more survivable without the def/shield/absorb.

Ok background in PvP out of the way.
I despise skanking on pure principle despite participating in it. I am a tank main.

On the issues that keep crawling up: if I'm hopping the damage board it's probably because me and my healer are trying to keep 6 people from node capping and I'm sitting on the node aoeing while my healer buddy is healing me. My aoe isn't exactly killing anyone but I do get substantial damage accumulated from doing this in say, a voidstar where a round can go on a while.

On the survivability front: a tank should be difficult to kill, that is, after all, the point. The single target pressure damage is not what it is in say, vigi. I say this with certainty because I spent a good amount of time maining vigi in WZ and still play it occasionally. My job as a tank is to stay alive, keep my team alive, and drive the enemy team insane trying to kill me so thst my team hopefully gains caps and objectives and thereby wins.

Now what is the solution to skanking and it's popularity? Glad you asked and didn't just mention blanket nerfs to an already poor surviving dps class.

1. Do something about the dps specs survivability.
2. Make tank stats work in PvP.

Together these two issues would ensure that dps players went dps and tank players ran tank gear. In the meantime, let's not talk survivability nerfs on guardians. Because let's do a reality check: the classes that need the survivability nerfs are not the tank capable classes. In fact, given the recent utility fiasco, the dps specs of tank capable classes could use some love. In fact, PT in general could use some love.

Ps the immortal juggernaut title is the name for the tank spec of a juggernaut: immortal. On a guardian it's defense.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.02.2018 , 07:41 PM | #3
I dispise skanks, so I知 playing my rage Jugg and yes I知 getting the top or near to the top dps every match. But that has nothing to do with the spec, it has to do with how bad most people are.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.02.2018 , 07:46 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I dispise skanks, so I知 playing my rage Jugg and yes I知 getting the top or near to the top dps every match. But that has nothing to do with the spec, it has to do with how bad most people are.
Exactly I've topped damage boards as a vigi guardian, but again it's always been because everyone else was bad or node guarding not because I'm so amazing. I'm a tank main, my dps is solidly in the not bad but not exceptional category

clocknane's Avatar


clocknane
01.03.2018 , 01:38 AM | #5
So basically you two are saying it is because everyone else is bad, but the class in general is fine.. come on..

clocknane's Avatar


clocknane
01.03.2018 , 01:41 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I dispise skanks, so I知 playing my rage Jugg and yes I知 getting the top or near to the top dps every match. But that has nothing to do with the spec, it has to do with how bad most people are.
Logically speaking, how does that have NOTHING to do with the spec? You are basically saying your damage is purely based on everyone else being "bad." You are basically saying the class is ok because everyone else is bad.

In response to Kendra. I understand what you are saying to an extent, but don't agree with all it, and while I understand a lot of the damage comes from AOE based skills when spamming nodes, the amount of damage is too high in general as a tank whether it be single target or aoe. Skank tanks putting on dps augs or dps gear with the survivability they have makes them overtuned currently. If you want to keep someone off a node via AOE'ing the damage should be in line with the class, aka tank, not in line with the aoe of a dps class. Jugg/Guard DPS single target is not terrible either. So with that said, sigh, I guess I need to repeat myself, Bioware/EA need to take a look at the class and/or classes in general. Tanks should be tanks and not deal on par damage as dps'ers. DPS should be DPS and not have the survivability of tanks, and healers should just heal as they currently do. Btw, You just repeated my point though regarding mitigation. If you have 6 guys wailing on a tank even with a healer, no one, not even a tank should survive that. The damage output in PVP is obviously never on par with PVE, but it is definitely high enough to suspect 6 people wailing on a tank, and not killing him seems broke.

DPS survival is not great, but not terrible so tweaks to dps survival should be minimal, otherwise, they become too tanky.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.03.2018 , 02:08 AM | #7
On the dps survivability front compare the dps specs of tank capable classes to a merc sniper or mara and tell me who the squishy is.

As I have said everywhere at this point I swapped back to tanking after dying 15 times as a vigi guardian in a miserable hypergates.

With all due humility, I do not run with an average healer. And if I'm holding off 6 guys they're probably not good and/or are trying to node cap rather than try to kill me. Additionally, I would think that when it seems one strategy is not working, you would go try a different strategy.

The fix to people running dps mods and enhancements as a tank spec in PvP is simple: make tank stats do something for me. So long as it does nothing but hinder my team I'm not going to bother. I had enough of being noble about things after that hypergate. If the consensus is jump the squishy guardian, I'm going to do everything I can to be not squishy. As a tank not dying is sort of what I'm supposed to do.

countdemons's Avatar


countdemons
01.03.2018 , 03:59 AM | #8
You can tell the OP is a sorc or a PT and is mad his class is not god-like anymore. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
01.03.2018 , 06:27 AM | #9
Defense is useless in PVP because more than half the abilities are F/T and ignore defense + stuns nullify defense.
Defense rating as a stat is also useless in general because the % gain per stat point is far too insignificant.

Shield (and thus absorb), on the other hand, has its uses in PVP. Each attack (M/R and F/T) that does not deal internal or elemental damage (most direct and aoe attacks in the game) includes shield in the "hit type" roll, which defines if the damage is normal, critical or shielded. If the roll hits within the crit chance the damage will be crit, if it hits withing the shield chance, it will be shielded. If it hits in neither it will be normal damage. If attacker's crit + defender's shield is greater than covering all 100% of the roll, then crit overlaps shield. That means if I am a tank with 60% shield (dark ward active) and my enemy is a dps with 45% crit, that means that all non-internal/elemental attacks have 45% chance to crit, and if they fail to crit they will definitely be shielded, which means 50-60% less damage in addition to the existing reduction from armor. So these stats (present in augments and enhancements only) do help PVP survivability.

I run a tank with tanky enhancements and Lethal mods 54B. I know that means I have twice the Power stat of a fully "tanky" tank (at the cost of meaningless 6% of def only ), but I don't consider myself "skank" because I use the same gear to Main Tank all possible PVE content including some NiMs, and the lower def is not felt in there. I an tell you from expirenece and experiments that a tank geared like that has about twice the survivability of a skank, at the cost of ~15% crit, that indeed reduce my burst, but let me fight longer without healing without having to bail or die, so the end is the same damage.

Full tank gear in PVP is indeed junk, but skank isn't the best answer, nor is it the case (probably) when you see non-bads failing to kill a tank. In short, if you see a tank surviving versus many without a healer, they are either all bads or he has tank enhancements. I never got soloed by a full skank and did solo some of them with my gear, so skank isn't that OP.

MackPol's Avatar


MackPol
01.03.2018 , 06:58 AM | #10
You think they are in tank spec you said. Does that mean you don稚 know for sure ? Well then best to find out first before posting.
Now tanks normally (unless exceptional aoe heavy game ) will not top the dmg chart. If they do then other dds in the match are inexperienced. Decent tank with correct gear will average 3.5 to 4K dps during normal wz. This should be beaten by decent dd players. Of course depending on the match. So maybe if you see Guardians topping dmg it will likely be Vigilnce with ez and good dot spread. Same player will always do more dmg on Vigilance then tank.
Another thing is that there are dd classes that have arguably better survivability then tanks say Merc and Sniper and maybe Mara too.

Also I would think about the mad term skantank. If they are doing the tanking then they should be called tanks regardless of the gear they use. Quite frankly that痴 the viable gear to do tanking so ppl use it. Term could only be applied to dd playing like tank.
Tanking involves taunting, guarding, providing dmg reduction, peeling, applying trauma, interrupting healer, applying slow to control the area, ccing targets and surprisingly doing damage to help get a kill. If someone is doing that and plays a tank tree they are a tank regardless of the gear.