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The Gear Grind


Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
12.31.2017 , 04:05 AM | #11
If we talk about new players not knowing things, lets talk about resolve in PVP, or about main stats before the times of mastery, or about how accuracy vs defense work.

Information in this game comes from 2 sources, the codex entries which you get rather randomly and won't necessarily know which to read as game info and which do disregard as lore. [There is a codex entry explaining resolve, when do you get it, and why would you read it are the questions], and the patch notes. Some things are stated only when they are implemented/changed and then forgotten about. It is not good, but that is how it currently is.

Therefore people make guides. There might be a guide for the gear, such as the one I posted, but in case there is none I just made one. Following this guide you can buy 248 gear in tier 1 as a non-sub who doesn't gain cxp, by the way, so your statement about good gear being restricted to rank 300 is wrong, it just starts flowing faster in 300, if you were unlucky enough, or lvled too fast to get all gear until you get there.

The game doesn't give the info, but when the info is given to you by any other means it is not too complicated to wrap the head around it. Until BioWare makes their in-game guide, settle for mine or any other. Problem solved.

funnypat's Avatar


funnypat
12.31.2017 , 05:11 AM | #12
People just don't want to invest 5 min of research to actually know, where and when to get stuff. It really is simple but requires at least a minor degree of curiosity...

I already said in another thread that in theory you could get BIS in 1 - 2 days depending on how dedicated you are and wether or not you have the people to do the required operations.

People who wanted everything easy ruined most of this game already.

There is no skill tree anymore, there are no subclasses, companions are pretty much invincible, there is only mastery and no classspecific stats anymore...

All because people were just too stupid and didn't bother to invest 5 min in one of the 5000 youtube guides....

Gearing is easy and not complicated, if you have too much trouble with it, you probably wouldn't have stayed for long here anyway so look for another mmo (I don't recommend anything from korea or asia in general, since there you have to farm gear for at least 1 year to get BIS )
Ræly (Operative - Star Forge)
Cæly (Scoundrel - Star Forge)

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
12.31.2017 , 06:51 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
If we talk about new players not knowing things, lets talk about resolve in PVP, or about main stats before the times of mastery, or about how accuracy vs defense work.

Information in this game comes from 2 sources, the codex entries which you get rather randomly and won't necessarily know which to read as game info and which do disregard as lore. [There is a codex entry explaining resolve, when do you get it, and why would you read it are the questions], and the patch notes. Some things are stated only when they are implemented/changed and then forgotten about. It is not good, but that is how it currently is.

Therefore people make guides. There might be a guide for the gear, such as the one I posted, but in case there is none I just made one. Following this guide you can buy 248 gear in tier 1 as a non-sub who doesn't gain cxp, by the way, so your statement about good gear being restricted to rank 300 is wrong, it just starts flowing faster in 300, if you were unlucky enough, or lvled too fast to get all gear until you get there.

The game doesn't give the info, but when the info is given to you by any other means it is not too complicated to wrap the head around it. Until BioWare makes their in-game guide, settle for mine or any other. Problem solved.
And then how would you know which guide is up to date? Rather than the top result from 2-3 years ago?
IF a new player would be curious enough he would look for a 5.6 guide, there probably isn't one.
So they go looking for older ones. What's to stop them from accidentally watching/reading an outdated guide?

Nothing. Nothing at all. If you don't know any better you don't stand a chance.
And I honestly never accessed the codex entries myself.
You'd really have to be deeply into the lore to be bothered with that stuff.

It's like putting core information in collectables. It doesn't work.
Evolixe | Exilove
Disciples of Babylon - Darth Malgus
Shadow/Sin Discord Server

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
12.31.2017 , 09:42 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
And then how would you know which guide is up to date? Rather than the top result from 2-3 years ago?
At least google usually provides a date for its results. Which search engine are you using?
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
IF a new player would be curious enough he would look for a 5.6 guide, there probably isn't one.
If someone doesn't understand and wants to understand, this someone should look for the answers. If that someone is aware how the internet works, then that someone will take measures to ensure an up to date result is achieved. Searching for guides for a game is no different than searching for a solution to a problem, or searching news. Most people nowadays know how to browse the internet. As much as if your speakers would stop working suddenly, you would know where to look and probably quickly dismiss anything which is unrelated or discusses Windows XP hardware solutions, same goes for a constantly patched game. It is common sense.
Out of curiosity: Just googled "swtor 5.6 gear guide", 1st result was this, which is a little too detailed for my taste (making the simple look complex), but very informative. It invloves even all numbers (which I chose to skip in my colored summary) of UC and CT granted and required for anything.
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
So they go looking for older ones. What's to stop them from accidentally watching/reading an outdated guide?
Nothing. Nothing at all. If you don't know any better you don't stand a chance.
Nothing but the date written above, as I said. If no date is written, I highly recommend those who read guides to log in the game at least once, just to make sure that the interfaces even look similar to those in the guides [for example, if someone sees a "skill tree" in a guide, but can only see discipline in game, he will realize it is either outdated or a different game completely, even if a date can't be found on the guide]. All that is still within the what can be expected from the average man who uses internet enough to play an MMO.
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
And I honestly never accessed the codex entries myself.
It's like putting core information in collectables. It doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
You didn't access the codex but you do know how resolve works, and I suspect it wasn't a recent discovery. I do agree that the codex is an odd and confusing place for important information because there are the separate far to elaborate tutorials as well (the only place where tutorials are good is in GSF practice), but fact is you managed, and everyone else managed to figure resolve out in alternative ways than BioWare's intent.
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
You'd really have to be deeply into the lore to be bothered with that stuff.
No, just need to know that some categories of the codex aren't lore. The category "game rules" used to explain main stats and still explains resolve and other basic things that many people have to know but sadly some don't. The category "persons of notes" was mostly lore but also included a summary of which behaviors do each companion like / dislike (now the very same codex entry is also written in the companion and contracts panel). And there is no need to explain the importance of the "crew skill" category, which, if people bothered to read the damn entry, would clear the fleet general chat from "which skills go with XYZ??" because it is plainly and very simply written in the entry.
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
It's like putting core information in collectables. It doesn't work.
As I said I totally agree with you that the locating of most info is stupid and while mostly accessible, people wouldn't know where to access it. And that needs to be changed, perhaps by editing the untouched-since-launch tutorials and putting everything in there. The most funny example is that the very important and useful information for new players "if you are stuck type /stuck" is an "RNG drop" in loading screens. I am not defending BioWare's bad distribution of info. All I said is that the info, once found, is not too complicated to understand and remember (even after long breaks, and I had some).
The OP involved a complaint about complication and lack of informatiion. I disagreed with the 1st and agreed with the 2nd. Instead of joining the complaint that I agree about, I chose to solve this problem (even if it is less optimal than BioWare actually making sense), by simplifying (twice) the information in this thread, thus making it also accessible (because OPs are likely to read their own threads). So both problems solved

Lattervane's Avatar


Lattervane
12.31.2017 , 11:21 AM | #15
Basically you need to open command crates, to get the tokens, to buy the gear, to combine with the unassembled components to buy the other gear.

Why not just have all gear, at all tiers bought with one currency type? Instead you have to get multiple currency types from several places and you have 8 VENDORS for gear in two different places. W. T. F.

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
12.31.2017 , 11:59 AM | #16
If you need to search for a guide on how to do it, the system has failed to explain itself very well.

If you want to see if a system you've designed does what it's supposed to and explains itself to random newbies well, you need to go out on the street, find some unsuspecting newbies, and hire them to try your system out. If they figure it out, your system isn't too bad. If they spend a couple hours scratching their heads and giving up, it's redesign time.

The other thing about game systems is that sometimes people will use it in ways you didn't intend and the systems you've put in place to watch what the players are doing won't do a very good of explaining why they aren't doing what you want them to/think they should be doing. Ex: I didn't buy commendation/crystal gear because I found trading commendations/crystals for companion gifts and stabilizers to be a better deal.

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
12.31.2017 , 12:32 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Lattervane View Post
Basically you need to open command crates, to get the tokens, to buy the gear, to combine with the unassembled components to buy the other gear.

Why not just have all gear, at all tiers bought with one currency type? Instead you have to get multiple currency types from several places and you have 8 VENDORS for gear in two different places. W. T. F.
At least since 2.0, there was never the same currency used for different tiers of endgame gear (separate elite/ulti comms for 162/168, for example). The reason is: if there was only one currency then it would be faster to get BiS if you save all currency for only BiS, not buying the cheaper lower tiers 1st. As a result, people who wanna gear the fastest way will choose to bare with gear under lowest tier instead of buying middle tiers, and will be a burden on their team in any content they enter.

So BioWare decided to actually make it all one currency, now how do we avoid the above problem? Simple and actually brilliant solution: require the lower tier of gear to buy the higher tier of gear, just as ranked gear used to work in the old times (to get "elite war hero" you had to buy it with "war hero" version + rwz comms). BioWare actually reverted to an old tactic here, but made it better because it is not lower gear + NEW currency (rwz comms were different from wz comms, you had to gain both), you need lower gear + ONLY currency. That means currency progression is good for all tiers of gear, while still forcing the players to have a staged gear progress, rather than baring with terrible gear until they can "spike" up to BiS.

But BioWare also had to make PVP gear go, because they realized how much mess was "expertise" causing when people failed to have it in PVP and having no expertise meant PVE gear would be better than PVP gear due to it having a higher rating and total stats. So PVP gear and PVE gear were merged into one kind of gear, the only kind. Now we need to make 2 kinds of systems that can work individually toward gear AND can be combined if you choose to. So OPS gave tokens, while PVP gave UC, which is an alternative way to get tokens, so we have both paths merging into the simple "get token to get gear", with 2 possible answers to "how to get tokens". So far not complicated. Additionally, they made RNG to give you a chance to boost the process. Since up to here wasn't complicated, don't tell me RNG makes all the difference...

They also separated the vendors per class (x4) and per tier (again x4), and in order to use the UC they made separated token vendors (again separated per class and per tier), and this is how we ended up with 32 vendors which are actually only of 2 kinds: token assemblers and token sellers (which I also called "gear convertors/upgrades"), seperated for convenience yet somehow people see it as inconvenience, even though the vendors have a very specific self-explanatory description ("tier 4 inquisitor"), to help people understand. In fact, I think the need of a guide is only for those too lazy to explore all vendors on the fleet at least once because that alone should be enough to understand the whole system.

Basically, in every game ever, single or multiplayer that involves any kind of currency(s) and any kind of store(s)/vendor(s), a smart player will 1st explore all purchase possibilities. Then see how easy/hard it is to acquire each kind of merchandise without purchasing, which (if any) consumable is actually worth spending money for, how fast does each currency accumulate and therefore, whether it is worth saving for expensive stuff or by cheap stuff 1st, and which stuff should be prioritized. Compared to most single player games, at least, SWTOR is oversimplified because all that is purchasable by the currencies is gear and boosts to get the same currencies faster, and gear itself is all same priority because gloves = boots = implant in any possible benefit they can grant because it is all about gathering the stats you need.
So instead of having to think of prioritizing different currencies which each buys different types of items, you have 2 currencies to achieve 1 goal - gear, and you use it to buy only that gear the other things required to buy that gear. Having only 1 goal with your currencies, is a very rare simplification in games nowadays (for example: "should I save to buy armor, bow or sword 1st?" in nearly any game in which the 3 items exists is a totally harder consideration because each is needed for completely different reasons). This game is not what I would call "complicated".
[Before you "attack" me for saying people have to explore vendors, think it doesn't make less sense than "read all utilities before you pick the ones you think best". You gotta know the options before you make choices. While learning the vendor options a side effect of that is you also learn the gearing mechanics, therefore you don't need to ask about it later]

countdemons's Avatar


countdemons
12.31.2017 , 04:14 PM | #18
The other issue with this system is alts. I have I believe 46 level 70's across many servers. To use ny Mercs as an example, I have 3 level 70 mercs. 1 on Harbinger for raiding, and 2 on ToFN>TRE>Darth Malgus. One is heal, one is dps.

Under the old system this is no issue. Under the new one, as I believe it, I need to get my "command rank" to 400 on both and then do the rituals to gear my alts.

I think we can all agree this is absurd.... but only if I have understood the kangaroo gearing system correctly
Dragonslayer, Gate Crasher
TOFN - TRE
Harbinger
KoTFE - Death of end game raiding http://www.swtor.com/r/xTdy9B

Severith's Avatar


Severith
12.31.2017 , 05:07 PM | #19
The RNG from the command crates is indefensible. That being said....

Anyone who walks over to the supply section of fleet and takes a look for 5 minutes gets a pretty good idea on how things work, and after they upgrade even a single piece they should have pretty solid knowledge on how to do it.

The upgrading system is alot more flexible than meets they eye, and if you have multiple toons your getting cxp with, has the power to reverse a lot of bad luck you get with only leveling cxp with one character.

Were it simplified to the point of which certain vocal people wanted it, it would lose that flexibility.

If it was a big issue, then we'd have a guide already, stickied to the top of the pvp and general forums. We could still have that if someone was inclined. Is it really needed? Probably not. If you disagree, then why not write one instead of complaining on the lack of information for new players?

countdemons's Avatar


countdemons
12.31.2017 , 05:38 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
The RNG from the command crates is indefensible. That being said....

Anyone who walks over to the supply section of fleet and takes a look for 5 minutes gets a pretty good idea on how things work, and after they upgrade even a single piece they should have pretty solid knowledge on how to do it.

The upgrading system is alot more flexible than meets they eye, and if you have multiple toons your getting cxp with, has the power to reverse a lot of bad luck you get with only leveling cxp with one character.

Were it simplified to the point of which certain vocal people wanted it, it would lose that flexibility.

If it was a big issue, then we'd have a guide already, stickied to the top of the pvp and general forums. We could still have that if someone was inclined. Is it really needed? Probably not. If you disagree, then why not write one instead of complaining on the lack of information for new players?
I'm not saying there isn't enough information. I am saying it's a needless system.

Kill ops boss - get gear
Kill ops boss on higher dificulty - get better gear

Do pvp - get tokens/comms - take to vendor and buy gear.

It's not a difficult concept. There is no real reason why they changed a simple, time tested gearing method that rewards you for hard work, effort and skill in regards to NiM raiding.

It seems it is just a pathetic attempt to distract from the fact the "devs" - use that word lightly in this case, are completely incapable of releasing any content other than a few cut scene's. Oh and bugs. They love making sure everything they do actually release is bugged.

You can not deny they despise the raiding community. Wildstar devs went on raids with some raid teams and spoke to them in voice chat regarding their raids and what they want.

Blizzard - with WOD content drought, the players went crazy. So they brought out Legion and was significantly better.

SWTOR - release 2 operations in four years. Refuse to talk about it, refuse to even mention operations. When asked, avoid the question.

It is a disgrace
Dragonslayer, Gate Crasher
TOFN - TRE
Harbinger
KoTFE - Death of end game raiding http://www.swtor.com/r/xTdy9B