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Premades and Yavin.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades and Yavin.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
12.30.2017 , 04:04 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Glocko View Post
They just need a care bear mode for everyone who can’t make friend and are really crappy so they can all queue together and do all their routine of
1. Never interrupting
2, not separating tanks from healers
3, not paying attention to buffs
4. White barring ball carriers
5. Not watching doors
6. Do 1.5-2K dips then complain they can’t kill the guarded healer....well no £@#$
Come to think about it they should match make so their is some kind of T-ball level so we don’t have to deal with them at all. Let premades and good pvpers have their own 8 mans and arenas and let the whiners run around their war zones without a clue. They could give them peanut butter sandwiches for the rewards
Yep, try separating skanks from their two healers in Yavin
Have you even played the new map?

Floplag's Avatar


Floplag
12.30.2017 , 05:32 PM | #22
OK the whole "make a few friends" thing that always comes up in these threads, is a really weak argument and rationalization aside has nothing to do with why people run solo.

PVP for some is about the challenge, the competition, testing yourself to improve. We all know that running in a premade literally negates virtually ALL of that and turns it into easy mode. Its literally PvP with training wheels, you cant fall/fail unless you run into a better premade 99% of the time.

Unfortunately, for those who prefer the challenge, it would seem that time has passed. Premades are the way of things now in SWTOR, complaining changes nothing.

My advise to you is to do exactly as they say, group up. Take them head on with groups of your own, it would seem thats literally all thats left. If you roll solo you roll the dice, and you will crap out more than you win, its house odds.
Stop bothering to try to change it you before you join me in the pariahs club.
Floplag - Merc/Mando
Referral link, cause why not: http://www.swtor.com/r/wdLxth

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
12.30.2017 , 05:46 PM | #23
All these people who tell PVPer to make friends and PVP with them need to realize 2 things:

1. The possibility to queue alone does not exist and was never intended to exist to feed premades (or to be carried by premades if lucky). They wouldn't make the button available to anyone ungrouped if that was the case, and only premades would exist. If solo exists, it is supposed to be a valid way to queue and possibly win. Not to lose to those who realized they suck at this game and dare not queue without an army...

2. Some players have more things to do in life than playing this game (and that alone is enough reason to be unable to login in sync with your friends) and/or have more things to do while playing this game. That means that people might be doing different activities while being queued to a warzone, and might even place themselves in queue to other activities such as GSF and all grouped PVE content. Multiple queues are impossible in group, and since they are in for queueing for all dailies at once, and not to run 20 matches in a row (YES! some people who do "only" 1,2,3 warzones in a row exist!!), then getting a group is too much of a bother for these few matches and disables their ability to multi-queue, which is quite surely slowing their progression toward their daily goals.
And before anyone adds additional stupid speculations: Not all people who do PVP just for daily are these annoying punching bags who couldn't care less about the match they enter and AFK/parse in it rather than play. Some want and try to win as much as those focused solely on PVP who play for 3h in a row, doing nothing else but WZs. And the guy who says they deserve less chance to win, just spits on the whole idea of solo queue (beside the possible personal skill gap due to lack of experience compared to full time PVPers, but don't forget that a full-time PVPer might be relatively new to the game, with a /played of 5hrs, while the daily queuer can have a total of 300hrs played, so the fact that one currently PVPs more doesn't make his skills necessarily better).

If it sounded a bit offensive, it might be because the "get friends" is offensive. It claims every complaint about the unfairness of premades is due to the lack of skill of the solo queuer rather than a real problem, while in truth, if anything, the lack of skill can be seen by the sole fact that many of these "aces" who go premade regularly dare not set foot in PVP without their premade, and when they rarely do that, they might be parsing legends, but objectively they suck so much, that when losing, they either curse the whole group for being useless noobs and quit or curse the whole group for being useless noobs and go AFK. Not gonna name people, but I do have a couple in mind, for either NWZ or GSF (in ranked its a different story because BW were smart enough to separate premade and solo there). No lack of skill (social or in-game) is indicated by going without premade. If anything, it is indicated by depending on it. Sometimes it is the exact same premade, so even the simple act of guaranteed FOTM backup is not enough, you need to practice with friends (sometimes + TS or discord)? Is beating the enemy pug group a nightmare boss to you? Where is the damn challenge? Where is the fun?
My definition of a "fun" match: 2 groups of approximately equal skills and coordination fight other objectives. The number of FOTM per group is not as important as how they switch tactics, such as sap caps, quick ambushes, etc. These matches can even happen when 1 side has 4 mercs and the other has none. This kind of matches can be compared to a good chess game between 2 masters.
Premakers sometimes apparent definition of "fun": Total stomping of a non-competing group due to superior coordination, choice of perfect T/D/H balance and sometimes FOTM classes. his kind of matches can be compared to a chess game of a master vs a beginner (prodigies aside).
Now as the guy who can pick my opponent, how do I look (if I want to be considered a master), if I pick the beginner instead of the master? In other words: If you consider yourself good, and you assume the enemy will not be premade either, how do you think you look when you choose the easy-secure win rather than the challenge?
[I bet the implementation of lvl sync was a sad day because ganking on Voss became harder, killing solo content on low planets was no longer one-shot (well, except for starting planets), and NiM ops and hard fps of low lvls could no longer be facerolled...]

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
12.30.2017 , 05:49 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Floplag View Post
OK the whole "make a few friends" thing that always comes up in these threads, is a really weak argument and rationalization aside has nothing to do with why people run solo.

PVP for some is about the challenge, the competition, testing yourself to improve. We all know that running in a premade literally negates virtually ALL of that and turns it into easy mode. Its literally PvP with training wheels, you cant fall/fail unless you run into a better premade 99% of the time.

Unfortunately, for those who prefer the challenge, it would seem that time has passed. Premades are the way of things now in SWTOR, complaining changes nothing.

My advise to you is to do exactly as they say, group up. Take them head on with groups of your own, it would seem thats literally all thats left. If you roll solo you roll the dice, and you will crap out more than you win, its house odds.
Stop bothering to try to change it you before you join me in the pariahs club.
I’ll join your pariahs club Flop

It wouldn’t be the first time my mouth’s got me into trouble and it won’t be the last

My motto is if you stay silent and not speak up, you deserve to get crap.
IMO, complacency and apathy is what’s wrong with this world these days.
If you don’t stand up for what you believe, you may as well be sheep or worse, a mushroom.

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
12.30.2017 , 06:05 PM | #25
This was written as I was writing my post, so I didn't see it until I posted. Reactions:
Quote: Originally Posted by Floplag View Post
Unfortunately, for those who prefer the challenge, it would seem that time has passed. Premades are the way of things now in SWTOR, complaining changes nothing.

My advise to you is to do exactly as they say, group up. Take them head on with groups of your own, it would seem thats literally all thats left. If you roll solo you roll the dice, and you will crap out more than you win, its house odds.
Stop bothering to try to change it you before you join me in the pariahs club.
The problem I see with your solution is that usually, I see only 1 premade per match (that's totally enough to decide the victor). Making a counter-premade is more likely that instead of match A having 1 premade and match B not having it, match A will have 1 and match B will have 1. It is just as likely as match A getting both premades countering each other, and in non-cross faction especially, as likely as match A getting both premades on 1 side stomping the other team even worse. So adding to the inflation of premades may solve the problem for those in the new premades, but as I said in my post, some people simply don't PVP enough in a row to be worth the bother of finding a group, or they queue other things and can't queue with a group, and we are just reducing the chance of these people to actually win a match.

EDIT: as was written again while I was writing:
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
My motto is if you stay silent and not speak up, you deserve to get crap.
IMO, complacency and apathy is what’s wrong with this world these days.
If you don’t stand up for what you believe, you may as well be sheep or worse, a mushroom.
You said "complaining changes nothing", but burst the forum enough, get the following suggestions into livestreams, put pressure. Paying customers sometimes get what they want when they are loud (see BF2 lootboxes ).
Coming from a guy who lives in a state which was founded only after a lot of agony, sweat, and loud voices in the U.N. but eventually WAS founded ENDOFEDIT
So whenever BioWare does listen:
The solution is drastic but simple: Copy the separation of premades and non-premades from RWZ to NWZ! Premades will only get their pops if they have an opposing premade. Up to bioware to decide if they wish to let premades of 2 or 3 keep going or force it to be 4 (or 8, though since NWZ have also arenas it makes more sense to make it 4), just as they force it to be 4 or solo in RWZ, but the point is premades will never face pugs. So if there are enough premades to ruin half the warzones of a day now, there should be enough to fill the queue of premades, leaving the solo queuers a fight versus other solo queuers.
And what if a premade wants to play but other premades are not online or they stomped the other premades too hard because you played too good (with FOTM or TS/discord, because unlike in GR no one will make a group for farms, so it is unlikely you will be TOO much better than all other premades) that they stopped queueing? Simple: Disband the premade and queue solo each, this way you might as well be with your friends as much as you are against them (only thing more fun than fighting beside friends is fighting them, UNLESS you are afraid... ) or be in seperate matches.
The wish of 4 people to stomp others should not be prioritized more than the wish of the opposing 8 to have a fair match, quite the opposite in fact, so this compromise of "no premade pops unless there are enemy premades" is far fairer than the current situation.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
12.30.2017 , 06:28 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
This was written as I was writing my post, so I didn't see it until I posted. Reactions:

The problem I see with your solution is that usually, I see only 1 premade per match (that's totally enough to decide the victor). Making a counter-premade is more likely that instead of match A having 1 premade and match B not having it, match A will have 1 and match B will have 1. It is just as likely as match A getting both premades countering each other, and in non-cross faction especially, as likely as match A getting both premades on 1 side stomping the other team even worse. So adding to the inflation of premades may solve the problem for those in the new premades, but as I said in my post, some people simply don't PVP enough in a row to be worth the bother of finding a group, or they queue other things and can't queue with a group, and we are just reducing the chance of these people to actually win a match.

EDIT: as was written again while I was writing:

You said "complaining changes nothing", but burst the forum enough, get the following suggestions into livestreams, put pressure. Paying customers sometimes get what they want when they are loud (see BF2 lootboxes ).
Coming from a guy who lives in a state which was founded only after a lot of agony, sweat, and loud voices in the U.N. but eventually WAS founded ENDOFEDIT
So whenever BioWare does listen:
The solution is drastic but simple: Copy the separation of premades and non-premades from RWZ to NWZ! Premades will only get their pops if they have an opposing premade. Up to bioware to decide if they wish to let premades of 2 or 3 keep going or force it to be 4 (or 8, though since NWZ have also arenas it makes more sense to make it 4), just as they force it to be 4 or solo in RWZ, but the point is premades will never face pugs. So if there are enough premades to ruin half the warzones of a day now, there should be enough to fill the queue of premades, leaving the solo queuers a fight versus other solo queuers.
And what if a premade wants to play but other premades are not online or they stomped the other premades too hard because you played too good (with FOTM or TS/discord, because unlike in GR no one will make a group for farms, so it is unlikely you will be TOO much better than all other premades) that they stopped queueing? Simple: Disband the premade and queue solo each, this way you might as well be with your friends as much as you are against them (only thing more fun than fighting beside friends is fighting them, UNLESS you are afraid... ) or be in seperate matches.
The wish of 4 people to stomp others should not be prioritized more than the wish of the opposing 8 to have a fair match, quite the opposite in fact, so this compromise of "no premade pops unless there are enemy premades" is far fairer than the current situation.
Honestly, I have no problems with premades except in cross faction maps. There is absolutely no reason to have them because the old excuses Bioware have made in the past about pop times are null and void.
I know premades drive people crazy in other maps too and they can be annoying, but they aren’t as game breaking as Yavin or reg Arena matches, (Hutt Ball doesn’t count because most premades just farm numbers in HB, while the solo player carries the team to a win by playing the ball )
Other maps have enough separation between nodes and pressure points to allow a group of skilled solo players to win. Yavin is another story with its unique mechanics, as pointed out in my original post. It’s those mechanics and the smaller size of the map that give the side with the premade a guaranteed win.
I think there is zero chance of them ever splitting the queue into premade and solo. It’s been asked for since launch and they had many more people in the queues then. It doesn’t mean you should stop asking . But with Yavin and even Odessen, they can easily make it so premades just don’t pop cross faction maps and still keep those WZs in the current queue system. As long as they tell players that, then there should be no problem.

stridemachine's Avatar


stridemachine
12.30.2017 , 06:47 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Floplag View Post
PVP for some is about the challenge, the competition, testing yourself to improve. We all know that running in a premade literally negates virtually ALL of that and turns it into easy mode. Its literally PvP with training wheels, you cant fall/fail unless you run into a better premade 99% of the time.
I realize you're frustrated with premades, but as others have said, I believe team composition plays a bigger part in match outcomes than just the presence of a premade. As Grim said, premades of all dps certainly aren't unsurmountable. The lack of role specific matchmaking seems to be the biggest problem.

In the past bioware has been hesitant to mess with match making in any way, likely because they were worried about queue times, but the solution is already out there: make every warzone cross faction. The servers have already been merged into "megaservers; population should no longer be an issue. The queue system is already in place for ranked warzones.
Staggerless - Scoundrel Tues'day - Operative
Zuzupetals - Shadow Zuzu'petals - Assassin
Zu-zu Petals - Sage Zuzu Petals - Sorceress

stridemachine's Avatar


stridemachine
12.30.2017 , 06:53 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
The wish of 4 people to stomp others should not be prioritized more than the wish of the opposing 8 to have a fair match, quite the opposite in fact, so this compromise of "no premade pops unless there are enemy premades" is far fairer than the current situation.
What defines a premade? 4 people? 3? If i want to queue with my wife does that make us a premade? Do 2 people together stand any more of a chance against a premade than a group of solo queuers?

And what happens if 3 people queue together and every other group consists of 4 people? Are they out of luck for pvp? How do you backfill in the event of a d/c?
Staggerless - Scoundrel Tues'day - Operative
Zuzupetals - Shadow Zuzu'petals - Assassin
Zu-zu Petals - Sage Zuzu Petals - Sorceress

Floplag's Avatar


Floplag
12.30.2017 , 07:52 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by stridemachine View Post
I realize you're frustrated with premades, but as others have said, I believe team composition plays a bigger part in match outcomes than just the presence of a premade. As Grim said, premades of all dps certainly aren't unsurmountable. The lack of role specific matchmaking seems to be the biggest problem.

In the past bioware has been hesitant to mess with match making in any way, likely because they were worried about queue times, but the solution is already out there: make every warzone cross faction. The servers have already been merged into "megaservers; population should no longer be an issue. The queue system is already in place for ranked warzones.
even just 4 dps have a huge advantage of voice comms typically, otherwise you are correct. ive beaten trinity teams, not thing an absolute. However, you take good players and any of the above and one lone ranger isnt doing ****
Especially for us outspoken types that people love to sit on, but its all good.
Floplag - Merc/Mando
Referral link, cause why not: http://www.swtor.com/r/wdLxth

Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
12.30.2017 , 08:48 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Glocko View Post
Let premades and good pvpers have their own 8 mans and arenas and let the whiners run around their war zones without a clue. They could give them peanut butter sandwiches for the rewards
You say premades and good PVPers like they are one and the same. They most certainly are not.

While some of the people who regularly farm pugs while in a premade are very good, the majority are not and need the removal of any challenge to inflate their performance well above their actual skill level.

PVP enough and you start to recognize the names of people who regularly premade, nearly always grouped with the same people. Time and time again on the occasions that you do encounter these players without their bro squad, they get farmed. Most premaders are average but the use of voice chat, or a pocket healer and/or tank, or a bro squad to focus whichever solo pugger is beginning to wreck them, all serve to mask it. Some premade heroes never leave their protective bubble because of it.

In short, premades more often than not are woobies for sh-tters.

You're also assuming that anyone who points out the advantages premades have or the problems they can sometimes cause in Regs, does not premade. I group often for Regs because sometimes it's more fun to play with friends. That doesn't mean I need to pretend it isn't an advantage however. It is, and a big one, and you don't even need voice chat to make it one. Just having the full trinity represented is sometimes enough, because not infrequently pug teams are without a healer or protection.

I also solo queue often because sometimes I want an actual challenge (a foreign concept to anyone who exclusively queues in a premade). Curbstomping the opposition repeatedly gets old, and the only time you're likely to get a good match when in a premade is if another premade is on the other team.