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Premades and Yavin.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades and Yavin.

DenariusJay's Avatar


DenariusJay
12.29.2017 , 04:15 PM | #11
Yea not a fan of this map. Have played a ton of lopsided matches on this map, something is wrong with it. I did manage to play a semi close game on it yesterday, but that was after 5 matches of either shutting out the other team or getting shut down ourselves. It's just not a fun map, maybe thats why it was never released in the first place with the SoR expansion, maybe they were trying to spare us this crap? I think foam is right, once you hold two nodes the way to defend them is really easy which makes come backs difficult. If you are fighting a premade there is no way to create distance against them, like in civil war most premades brawl in the middle leaving solo players/objective to pick of the ends if possible, because the map has built in distance making it harder for them to respond. Most don't and just number farm anyway.

But this map doesn't have that. So a premade can just bounce all over the place and farm everything, they can farm spawn and run up the steps to farm middle, back to spawn, etc. which happens alot. Number farmer dream I guess.

The only solution is to leave, and reque and hope you don't get back in.
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TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
12.29.2017 , 04:35 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DenariusJay View Post
Yea not a fan of this map. Have played a ton of lopsided matches on this map, something is wrong with it. I did manage to play a semi close game on it yesterday, but that was after 5 matches of either shutting out the other team or getting shut down ourselves. It's just not a fun map, maybe thats why it was never released in the first place with the SoR expansion, maybe they were trying to spare us this crap? I think foam is right, once you hold two nodes the way to defend them is really easy which makes come backs difficult. If you are fighting a premade there is no way to create distance against them, like in civil war most premades brawl in the middle leaving solo players/objective to pick of the ends if possible, because the map has built in distance making it harder for them to respond. Most don't and just number farm anyway.

But this map doesn't have that. So a premade can just bounce all over the place and farm everything, they can farm spawn and run up the steps to farm middle, back to spawn, etc. which happens alot. Number farmer dream I guess.

The only solution is to leave, and reque and hope you don't get back in.
It’s the premades that are the problem. I’ve had really exciting matches when there aren’t any in a match. It’s very dynamic and has a good balance of combat and objective play in the one map. I would like more maps like this, but only if premades are excluded from them.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
12.29.2017 , 06:05 PM | #13
Well, I'm just gonna suggest something far more simple, because the issue isn't exactly the premades from what I see, more the inequality between the two teams in terms of healer/tank.
It's not impossible to completely obliterate a premade team on the Yavin WZ, it just requires balanced matchmaking along with peoples who knows how to play :')

Give us proper matchmaking, ensure that a team with a healer will meet a team with a healer as well. The same goes for tank. You could even go as far as Overwatch for example, and make it so that when a team has a premade, then the other team will also have a premade with the same numbers of players.

A «premade only» warzone isn't fun, I don't see why I should participate in a «farming warzone» ruled by a TR premade just because I wanted to pvp for fun with my wife.
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Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
12.30.2017 , 01:37 AM | #14
A large part of the problem with Yavin is player attitude.

I've been noticing a common occurrence in that map now when one team is down with only one node. A large portion of the losing team, even though they've still got time to come back, simply give up but do it in the worst possible way. Instead of quitting the match entirely and maybe allowing someone who will play the match to the end to replace them, they'll sit like turtles and pout on the one node they own.

It's hard to come back from a deficit when you're going after enemy nodes but the people still trying are consistently heavily outnumbered but a roaming gank squad because half or more of your team are now camping your sole node instead of pressuring the enemy's.

I don't know if it's that they're quitting or they're afraid of losing that one node, but it is responsible for a lot of ugly matches. A loss is a loss whether you own one node or none, so there is literally no point in stacking on the last node. I could understand maybe if you're so far down that you need 3 to win and the other team was blessed by the lack of matchmaking, making a 3 cap impossible, but people are starting to do this almost as soon as one team captures two nodes. It's ridiculous.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
12.30.2017 , 01:58 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Aeneas_Falco View Post
A large part of the problem with Yavin is player attitude.

I've been noticing a common occurrence in that map now when one team is down with only one node. A large portion of the losing team, even though they've still got time to come back, simply give up but do it in the worst possible way. Instead of quitting the match entirely and maybe allowing someone who will play the match to the end to replace them, they'll sit like turtles and pout on the one node they own.

It's hard to come back from a deficit when you're going after enemy nodes but the people still trying are consistently heavily outnumbered but a roaming gank squad because half or more of your team are now camping your sole node instead of pressuring the enemy's.

I don't know if it's that they're quitting or they're afraid of losing that one node, but it is responsible for a lot of ugly matches. A loss is a loss whether you own one node or none, so there is literally no point in stacking on the last node. I could understand maybe if you're so far down that you need 3 to win and the other team was blessed by the lack of matchmaking, making a 3 cap impossible, but people are starting to do this almost as soon as one team captures two nodes. It's ridiculous.
That’s when you all rush them and teach them that giving up and sitting at the node won’t protect them from dying

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
12.30.2017 , 03:32 AM | #16
The premade thing, it's not just about this map. I'm not against premades in theory, people should be allowed to group up with a friend or two, I mean, it's an MMO and if you look at it from a bit further away,. raid teams are premades, right? It's hard to say 'there shouldn't be premades allowed for group content'.

At the same time, and again, it's not just about this one map in question, far from it, premades can be the cause of wins or losses on any map if the team they are going up against is a pug team that is lacking some of the fundementals that make victory more likely.

I don't care what map it is, if you are on a team with no healers, and the team you are up against has 2 healers and a skank tank, all things being equal [skill level, gear, etc] that team that doesn't have healers is 90% going to lose. Even if there is a difference of 1 healer [so say one team has two healers and a skank and the other team has 1 healer], chances are the team with only one healer is going to lose. A map like Yavin makes it that one healer isn't going to be enough to cover the needs of all the players defending at any node, so if another node is being attacked and one is being defended at the same time and you only have one healer, that other team can have a healer cover ing both actions at the same time, the team with only one than has to choose, which action is more important? Keep what we have, or try for a second node because we cannot win with only holding one node. The team that can make multiple moves at once is going to be at advantage. I played a match on that Yavin map just like that last night, the following is the results from that wz that may help to demonstrate what I'm saying.

https://ibb.co/cipYjw

[Was an insane amount of Maras and Sents in this match for some reason, I've never seen anything like that before, mercs and snipers, yeah all the time, but not this.]

The winning team which I was on had two healers and PT skank tank. The enemy team had 1 healer but no tank. Now, even still, even combining the two two healers on my team's results, the healer on the other team still did more total healing than the two healers on the winning team combined and as a Operative no less.

The extra healer and the skank option makes covering all the bases' far easier, places less of a load on any one healers shoulders and the presence of the skank allows for mobile response for either an attack or a defense [better for attack though].

We can see here that the teams really weren't at all that disimilar from one another in terms of class make ups, if anything they were unusually alike in that regard. What was unusual was the high presense of melee over ranged, and that the usual state of classes [lots of mercs and snipers] wass't present, but that only helps to serve as a good example of just how telling these two or three other classes/roles being present are on the match. This match was about 4 out of the 18 players mostly. The the three healers and the one skank.

Nothing makes or breaks a teams chances more than the presence or lack there of of healers/tank support. They are what matters, they are what is so telling and they are the reasons why premades can have such a profound effect on the results and outcome of matches and this is even more the case in arenas.

It isn't premades in and of themselves that are the problem, it is the combination of classes that are at issue. A premade of a mara, an assassin and a DPS sorc isn't going to be an issue and isn't going to cause a balance shift between the two teams, but a premade with two healers, a skank, and a merc, that very well can cause a dis-balance unless the other team was just as lucky to get such a combo by luck of the draw. - Once again, it's just about class balance, because if you replaced a ton of these sents and maras with mercs or snipers who weren't therefore totally reliant on the healers for their survival due to lost health this entire situation could have played out a lot different because mercs and snipers have their own heals and that is why they represent their own threat to class balance.

PVP is half about skill and half about who has more heals. That's why mercs and snipers are OP, because of their heals and because of the amount of heals [or rather lack there of] the other DPS specs have compared to theirs. All things being equal nothing trumps heals in PVP. Heals = 'extra lives'.

Glocko's Avatar


Glocko
12.30.2017 , 06:35 AM | #17
Or maybe you could make a friend or two

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
12.30.2017 , 07:31 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Glocko View Post
Or maybe you could make a friend or two
That’s an old excuse and a lame argument. All that does is unbalance the system more because not everyone will chose to do that even if you do.

It’s not about wether you are on the winning team or losing team that has a premade, it’s about having fun in the match. If matches are one sided on Yavin because the matchmaking queue system can’t tell the difference between a premade team of two healers with a skank and then adds a third solo healer to that team while the other has none, then it’s completely one sided. and the other team has no hope of winning even if they have some great players.
Basically it’s boring being on either team because you are either stomping the team without the premade into the ground or if you are on the other team, the match becomes one big parsing situation because nothing dies.

The best solution is to actually add matchmaking to the queue system and not only rely on filling numbers from the queue. We now have cross faction and that should be enough people in the queue to allow for better match making. But if they won’t or can’t do that for Yavin, then the other solution, how ever unattractive, is to remove premades from it.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
12.30.2017 , 09:36 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
That’s an old excuse and a lame argument. All that does is unbalance the system more because not everyone will chose to do that even if you do.

It’s not about wether you are on the winning team or losing team that has a premade, it’s about having fun in the match. If matches are one sided on Yavin because the matchmaking queue system can’t tell the difference between a premade team of two healers with a skank and then adds a third solo healer to that team while the other has none, then it’s completely one sided. and the other team has no hope of winning even if they have some great players.
Basically it’s boring being on either team because you are either stomping the team without the premade into the ground or if you are on the other team, the match becomes one big parsing situation because nothing dies.

The best solution is to actually add matchmaking to the queue system and not only rely on filling numbers from the queue. We now have cross faction and that should be enough people in the queue to allow for better match making. But if they won’t or can’t do that for Yavin, then the other solution, how ever unattractive, is to remove premades from it.

I agree Trixxie. Ultimately, we play this game for one reason, to have fun, that's the point of games. Some people take it too seriously and that sometimes is what can cause people not to have fun. They pick the perfect class combos, they premade, they get voice chat all in the hopes of not having fun, but rather of stomping pug teams. Even worse is when these same people than want to start talking all kinds of shzt like the fact that they are premading the perfect class/role combos and using VC has nothing to do with their performance and they start calling the pugs their team is stomping 'shiztters'. - That's not about having fun, that's about having an edge, and being an A-O.

I am of a mixed mind on the subject because I don't feel it would be right to tell people they can't play with their friends, that doesn't really seem fair either. But, if you made role allotments somehow, to insure that there wouldn't be too much of something on one team and not enough of it on the other, that doesn't seem to be overly limiting, people could still play with their friends in the context of the roles available. - Would it place a limit on what people could play with their friends, yeah, I guess it would but given how many alts most people play, I'm sure they could work it out so they could play with their friends and just have to perhaps be a bit more discerning of which alts some may play sometimes. It's not a perfect system to be sure, and people would than say "Well that's my main and that's what I want to play and this is unfair because it places limitations". That is true, but, it's no different in raiding. Not everyone in a raid group can play a healer or a tank, you have to have some people playing DPS and some people might have multiple characters and on that raid group they might have to fill a role that's needed still. So it's totally doable if you look at it like that. Yeah, PVP is different, I get it, but, raiders manage somehow with everyone not playing too many of one role. If the group already has two healers on that raid team, that you can't play a healer.

Problem is there are some valid arguments to be made on both sides. But at the same time, how many people want to keep playing one sided matches over and over again? Fair or not, it's not good for the longevity of the game and it does turn people off to PVPing. I think there should be some consideration given to implementing role limits on teams so that these kinds of one sided matches could be avoided. I don't really know how it could be done to make everyone happy all the time, but I'm sure with some of the talented minds we see on the forums there are probably some people who could come up with some worthy ideas that at very least be considered. Maybe even a separate quece option, if your willing to maybe have to wait a little longer for groups to fill wherein it won't pop until there is a more even spread of the roles possibly. No one would be forced, they could do it the normal way of they choose, and with the population count as they are now there really isn't a shortage of players so it might be more viable of an idea now since the mergers. With that idea of yours in mind, it may speak to the added value of having cross faction for that very purpose. I'm not real big on cross faction personally, but, if it makes more people happy for the options it might allow than hell, I'm all for more people being happy.

Glocko's Avatar


Glocko
12.30.2017 , 03:20 PM | #20
They just need a care bear mode for everyone who can’t make friend and are really crappy so they can all queue together and do all their routine of
1. Never interrupting
2, not separating tanks from healers
3, not paying attention to buffs
4. White barring ball carriers
5. Not watching doors
6. Do 1.5-2K dips then complain they can’t kill the guarded healer....well no £@#$
Come to think about it they should match make so their is some kind of T-ball level so we don’t have to deal with them at all. Let premades and good pvpers have their own 8 mans and arenas and let the whiners run around their war zones without a clue. They could give them peanut butter sandwiches for the rewards