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Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
12.20.2017 , 02:40 PM | #11
My responses in Orange

Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
I don't know. I mean, the film is definitely flawed and imperfect but I feel like your points aren't really the problem with the movie:

In your opinion they are not problems... my opinion is that they are. I am not dismissing that you are allowed to like it for your reasons.

1) Rey's power is (kinda) explained by Snoke as the Force trying to balance Ben's insane power by .....
Explained away in the same movie. No continuity to any of the prequels is my issue. And again... who is Snoke anyways to know these things?

2) Well Luke dying due to this "Force Projection" was foreshadowed early when Kylo stated that had Rey not formed a bond with him, the effort of projecting her image throughout the galaxy would kill her. And Luke did that very thing,

Read below response to 3 please.

3) Regarding the "invention of Force Powers", I'm sorry but I don't see the problem. You're on the forum to a game who litteraly pulls Force Powers out of its butt to justify the plot moving forward.

It was obvious plot fillers. So much so that they actually mention it before implementing it in the same movie. Invention for the sake of advancing the plot - and a way to kill Luke. Funny he talks about it and how it would kill you and then Luke does it anyways. Instead of going with Rey in the first place to confront him face to face. And that would have made much more sense and done Luke's story some justice. Instead of just being used to "slow down" their advancement so Leah could escape. Also, I am playing a game that is not cannon... the movies on the other hard are a totally different thing. This game matters 0% into the movies, to mention it is missing the point entirely. This game has 0% impact on any aspect of the movie.

-----
-You need to not be under fire. Holdo wasn't at that point.
-Your target needs to be big enough. Snoke's ship was but it's one of the most ridiculously oversized ship in Star Wars, even dwarfing the Executor.
-Your target needs to be close enough for you to aim precisely at it and not overshoot.
-Your target also needs to be far enough so your ship does actually jump in hyperspace BEFORE it hits it (See the fleeing Rebels in Rogue One that crash against the Devastator as they are still "powering" their hyperdrive.
-You lose the ship you are using.
And while it's not mentionned, it's possible that in the 30 years since ROTJ, advancements in hyperdrive technology allowed it as a tactic at all. This movie is also the first where capital ships shields are shown onscreen.
-----
I mean... you made this all up as you were going. Also, droids fly ships and auto-pilot. No need for anymore starship fight scenes... all you have to do is aim droid controlled ships at the enemy from now on. But, you don't see a problem here.

That's fair. I personally like the new characters but if your interest in Star Wars was driven by the OT cast (Or simply that you don't like the ST cast), no one can blame you for having no interest in their further adventures.


The new characters would have been fine had they implemented them correctly and done right by Luke, to me, they failed horribly bad at both. So much so, that like I said, I no longer care about the future of the franchise.

Blame Lucas for that, he already stated that Stormtroopers from the OT are NOT Clones anymore, and they built their army in half the time the First Order did, based only on voluntary recruitment (New material indicate that the Empire did not have mandatory drafts) while the First Order started with ressources left from the Empire and kidnapped childrens by the tens of thousands (I think that trainwreck Battlefront II explores it but I'm not actually sure of that. Didn't play it.)
sounds legit

That being said, the lack of explanation regarding the First Order's rise is mostly due to the time frame chosen and the exagerated backlash against the politics of the Prequels (The problem was not "The politics", just that it was badly done IMO)

The lack of explanation is due to them not explaining it correctly (or at all) in the actual movies and bad story-telling. It has nothing to do with politics or prequels

So yeah, you're probably not alone in thinking that Star Wars is ruined but I'm not one of them. I believe stuff needs to change over time and I'm curious (But exactly hyped) to see what they will do next. I'm just glad they are not doing things the Legends way where the Big Three were functionally immortals and they ran of villains in a matter of a single decade because they wanted to stick to the classics (And they innovated it was a disaster.)
I figured they would have waited until 3 to kill off Luke, and train Rey to be his "replacement" In place of that... he dies due to projecting a hologram. :/
At the end of the day, to each their own. I feel that all they are doing is a reboot of the Star Wars story for a younger generation of super feminists and SJWs. It is its own thing now and not affiliated with any of the previous SW lore, story or heroes. Hence, I don't care about injection of SJW BS or any of societal stereotypes we have here on Earth. I get enough of that from the channel five news team.
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
12.20.2017 , 02:45 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
"I didn't like the movie. A few others didn't like the movie either and are vocal about it. STAR WARS IS RUINED" He says while millions of other fans love the movie and are largely positive about it. A vocal minority proclaims Star Wars as ruined and dead, surely it must be true! /sarcasm

If you didn't like the movie, I am very sorry to hear that. It's a great pity. Yet don't claim something is ruined just because you didn't like it. It may be ruined for you only, although I completely fail to see why The Last Jedi would ruin anything for anyone because nothing in it would in my opinion be that bad. People hold onto what they wanted to be in the movie too much and because their vision for what was to come didn't happen they hate it. Sorry to break it to those people, but the story isn't yours to tell. You loved it? Great! You hated it? Too bad, but you have to move on. A billion dollar company won't stop whatever they are doing just because a few people don't like the direction while majority does.

Look, I said others are fully capable of liking it. I am attacking the movie and why It failed me as an individual. If you like it , great. Are you trying to say I am not allowed an opinion on the matter? I am talking about me and why I did not like it. I mention nobody else in my rant nor am I saying you should not like it either.

Learn to read and comprehend something before going on the offensive and creating strawman arguments.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.20.2017 , 02:46 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
This never had anything to do with the quantity of the people liking it, but their quality. Most of EU fans ,deeply versed in Star Wars don't like the movie, their opinion is all that matters to me.

Ofc the average joe is gonna see some space ships and force powers and some sabers are gonna say wooohoo star wars , awesome! Especially when it comes to Force Awakens.

And i am sure some1 will say, if not here, then to themselves i am versed in the EU and i like it. Bollocks. Just wait till the hype leaves.
As a matter of fact... I have read majority of the expanded universe, either in comics or in books. I have played the games set in the EU. I loved the Thrawn thrilogy, I thoroughly enjoyed the Legacy of the Force series. KOTOR 1 & 2 are my favourite stories in all of Star Wars, the Bane trilogy a close second. I adored the old Vader comics that are now Legends and I was severely intrigued by the Darth Plagueis novel. So, by your own words you should care about my opinion because I loved and still love Legends and old EU content.

However, I don't hold onto it with the new Star Wars canon. I broadened my horizons and guess what? The new canon is amazing as well. The Phasma novel? Brilliant! The Thrawn novel? Epic! Leia, Princess of Alderaan? Beautiful! The Aftermath trilogy? Breathtaking! Bloodline? Fantastic!

Holding onto the old EU will severely limit you and rob you of enjoying amazing new stories. Do I say ignore EU and Legends? No, enjoy it just as much as I do when I reread the old books or replay KOTOR 1 & 2. But look at the new canon with an open and new perspective. Enjoy the best of both worlds, instead of ruining Star Wars for yourself. Because no one is ruining Star Wars for you except you yourself.
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
12.20.2017 , 02:47 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Quality is not a democracy. McDolands is not quality food if millions of people are fans of it and it is profitable.
Excellent comparison.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.20.2017 , 02:50 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
Excellent comparison.
A faulty comparison. Because art, theatre, movies and music are determined by a majority liking it, thus determined by democracy. As I said before, food made by cheap resources can objectively be determined to be of low quality. However, a painting made with cheap paint can still be considered to be a masterpiece because of the subjective opinions of a majority of people who view it.

Thus as you can see, the comparison is faulty because it denies the subject of "quality" and how it is determined can differ in various contexts.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
12.20.2017 , 02:58 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
A faulty comparison. Because art, theatre, movies and music are determined by a majority liking it, thus determined by democracy. As I said before, food made by cheap resources can objectively be determined to be of low quality. However, a painting made with cheap paint can still be considered to be a masterpiece because of the subjective opinions of a majority of people who view it.

Thus as you can see, the comparison is faulty because it denies the subject of "quality" and how it is determined can differ in various contexts.
The point is, just because something is popular or makes a lot of money does not mean everyone must think it is the best. That is all. It is that simple. I am sure they will continue to make a lot of SW money. I am sure they will make more films. I am just saying they killed it for ME regardless of what successes they have, I have 0 investment in anything they are doing now. As an individual, I am allowed my opinion of art just like you are. I do not have to like the same pieces that everyone else does. This is the problem with identity politics. You end up with group-think in place of individualism.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.20.2017 , 03:13 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
The point is, just because something is popular or makes a lot of money does not mean everyone must think it is the best. That is all. It is that simple. I am sure they will continue to make a lot of SW money. I am sure they will make more films. I am just saying they killed it for ME regardless of what successes they have, I have 0 investment in anything they are doing now. As an individual, I am allowed my opinion of art just like you are. I do not have to like the same pieces that everyone else does. This is the problem with identity politics. You end up with group-think in place of individualism.
Of course you're allowed to have your own opinion, I had nothing against your opinion personally. It is the people who try to enforce their hate for the Last Jedi, which there are a few vocal ones of, onto others. They are the ones who end up in group-think, believing that they found a few others who also hate TLJ and make the faulty conclusion that everyone hates it and it must be hated.

If my words seemed to be directed at you personally then I apologise as that was not my intent. I directed it in a general sense, albeit I might have used the wrong wording for that.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
12.20.2017 , 03:28 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Of course you're allowed to have your own opinion, I had nothing against your opinion personally. It is the people who try to enforce their hate for the Last Jedi, which there are a few vocal ones of, onto others. They are the ones who end up in group-think, believing that they found a few others who also hate TLJ and make the faulty conclusion that everyone hates it and it must be hated.

If my words seemed to be directed at you personally then I apologies as that was not my intent. I directed it in a general sense, albeit I might have used the wrong wording for that.
I know people that loved the movie - I do not and that is that. It is what it is, a personal opinion piece just like all the others.

There are obviously people out there like me who did not enjoy it, there are others that loved it. I just wish people would stop attacking others for their opinions on a movie (pro or con). All it proves is how important SW is to people. I am not complaining because I don't care, it is very much the opposite for me and I can promise you that.
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kepeskvaeri's Avatar


kepeskvaeri
12.20.2017 , 03:43 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
There is still pre kotor 1 EU, kotor 1,2, swtor, post swtor EU and the Bane and Plagueis novels. That's where the true SW is now. At least for me.
I agree with you there wholeheartedly. Lucas started a great mythos but the latest movie gave me the impression that he was someting of a one trick pony (please don't blast me).

I like what Bioware and some writers has given to the star wars saga more simply because they had better and more interesting stories to tell (in my opinion) and they had a more deeply layerd way of telling it so my heart is still with the old content which the origianl creater ironicly never had anything to do with.

My opinion only and I did like the LAst Jedi to a degree it just did not have the feel that I have come to exprerience with better (in my opinion) star wars media.

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.20.2017 , 03:46 PM | #20
Quote:
Funny he talks about it and how it would kill you and then Luke does it anyways. Instead of going with Rey in the first place to confront him face to face. And that would have made much more sense and done Luke's story some justice. Instead of just being used to "slow down" their advancement so Leah could escape.
I personally disagree about that. The way they used Luke on Crait, considering he was probably slated to die even before a single line of script was written, made perfect sence in the context of that story.
By doing the Force Projection thing, he slowed down Kylo Ren, humiliated him (Made him lose his temper in front of Hux, demanded to stop the assault to go confront him only to turn out that he wasn't even really there) and allowed the Resistance to escape. Making Crait a form of pyhric victory for the Resistance (Now apparently the Rebellion again?)
If Luke had gone for real, there are a few possibilities as to how it could have gone:
-Kylo Ren somehow gets the upper hand and outright kills Luke, showing his power to the watching First Order and destroying morale for the Resistance
-Luke lets Kylo Ren kill him by doing an Obi-Wan. The First Order will still probably see Kylo as the man who slew Luke Skywalker no matter what and while his death won't harm the Resistance's morale as much but he might have been perceived as giving up.
-Luke destroys the First Order's forces on the ground, leading to two possible options: Kylo Ren and Hux die, leaving the trilogy with no vilain. Or they escape and the damaged but very much functionnal First Order Fleet intercepts the Resistance leaving aboard the Falcon, since they don't have to coordinate troops on the ground anymore.
-Luke flees with the Resistance, appearing still rather weak and un-dedicated to the fight.

Sure, Luke's death hurts. It was sad to see. But considering how low he was early on in the movie, his return was a complete victory as far as I'm concerned.
But I get it if you disagree, as discussed, this is how I interpret the ending
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