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Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
12.20.2017 , 11:17 AM | #1
OK so let me start by saying I LOVE STAR WARS! LOVE IT. Love the lore, story, heroes and villains. Darth Vader is still arguably the most recognizable and menacing film villains of all time.

I respect people who liked the film and I am not going to say you are not allowed to like it. But on the same hand, I did not.

I will try to just list the top 3 things I did not like with the movie and an explanation as to why.

1) Super untrained Rey. What in the world? An untrained force user bests someone trained and tutored by one of the greatest Jedi masters of all time.

2) Weak and ridicules Luke. Again... What in the world? We have one of the most powerful Jedi EVER and he gets pwned by creating a hologram with no real fight scene. Star Wars is about the Skywalkers yes? I mean even a write-in Mace Windu had an awesome fight scene... Yoda had a fight scene, Obi had a fight scene. But Luke, the most prolific of heroes in the SW universe?... no. I am just dumbfounded by what they did to Luke in this movie. This is probably the most ridicules failures of this movie.

3) The many many many plot holes or the invention of force abilities (to fill plot points) and use of force ghosts and light speed never used before in any other movie. Force ghosts can send down lighting. awesome right? Except why not just have force ghosts go around and kill the bad guys to start with? Just ram other ships with light-speed FTW! Not sure why nobody would have thought about this before.

I could go on but really, I have no reason to care about Rey, Finn, Poe or Kylo at this point. They have killed everyone else and now this is just a name on a movie and not a continuation of a story. Super Rey with a week or less of training... because forget some training... let's just go straight to beastmode. Only those insignificant Skywalkers need to be trained in the force am I right?. Just wow.

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

This movie really killed SW for me. And this is without going into... Who was Snoke? Where did he come from? The first order? What does it mean and where did they come from? Why move from clones to normal people being storm troopers and how did they acquire and train so many in such a short period of time? I mean... I am just lost in the stupidity and carelessness of it all.

Star Wars is ruined for me now. I do not know if I am alone in those lines of thought, but that is where I am, I do not care about it anymore.

There would have been better ways to kill off Luke after they have established that Rey had EARNED and TRAINED for the part.

/rant
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Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
12.20.2017 , 12:02 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
This movie really killed SW for me.
There is still pre kotor 1 EU, kotor 1,2, swtor, post swtor EU and the Bane and Plagueis novels. That's where the true SW is now. At least for me.
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AlienEyeTX's Avatar


AlienEyeTX
12.20.2017 , 12:06 PM | #3
Spoiler
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Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.20.2017 , 12:22 PM | #4
I don't know. I mean, the film is definitely flawed and imperfect but I feel like your points aren't really the problem with the movie:
1) Rey's power is (kinda) explained by Snoke as the Force trying to balance Ben's insane power by "awakening" a person to the Force who would follow the Light. It's really developped in the movie but I hope that idea will be explored further. It should be noted that Rey never really fights Kylo in a way that requires training in this film, their only real "battle" is the Force struggle for Anakin's lightsaber and they come out pretty even though Kylo does get knocked out I think. If this is about the duel in TFA, that has been covered dozens of time but I don't think that was your point.

2) Well Luke dying due to this "Force Projection" was foreshadowed early when Kylo stated that had Rey not formed a bond with him, the effort of projecting her image throughout the galaxy would kill her. And Luke did that very thing, for a pretty long duration and after spending six whole years cut from the Force. And it's been hinted that he doesn't so much "die" at the end as he just decides to pass on into the Force without reaching the end of his life like Yoda, Obi-Wan or Anakin had to. Discussing what they "did" to Luke in the movie would require a thread to its own but IMO, it was a believable continuation for his character considering what TFA had already set up and his behavior in the OT. And another point: Sure killing Luke in VIII was kinda sad (And in hindsight I'm sure Lucasfilm regrets it since Carrie Fisher passed away and it'd have been better for VIII to be her movie and IX to be Hammil's) but the thing is, Hammil is not immortal, and he's not getting any younger. At least we got to see Luke find his belief in himself again and face his failure (And thoroughly humiliate Kylo Ren in the process) before peacefully joining his teachers and father in the Force. And he'll so be back in IX.

3) Regarding the "invention of Force Powers", I'm sorry but I don't see the problem. You're on the forum to a game who litteraly pulls Force Powers out of its butt to justify the plot moving forward. In fact, that's how Star Wars has always worked. Every single movie has introduced a new power. Remember that until ESB, there was no indication that the Force could pull objects to the user or levitate objects, it had only been seen to trick weak minds, help aim a torpedo and choke from afar.
And the hyperspace thing, it felt to me like it was a very long shot even in the movie. It requires so many variable that it's not a safe bet:
-You need to not be under fire. Holdo wasn't at that point.
-Your target needs to be big enough. Snoke's ship was but it's one of the most ridiculously oversized ship in Star Wars, even dwarfing the Executor.
-Your target needs to be close enough for you to aim precisely at it and not overshoot.
-Your target also needs to be far enough so your ship does actually jump in hyperspace BEFORE it hits it (See the fleeing Rebels in Rogue One that crash against the Devastator as they are still "powering" their hyperdrive.
-You lose the ship you are using.
And while it's not mentionned, it's possible that in the 30 years since ROTJ, advancements in hyperdrive technology allowed it as a tactic at all. This movie is also the first where capital ships shields are shown onscreen.

Quote:
I could go on but really, I have no reason to care about Rey, Finn, Poe or Kylo at this point.
That's fair. I personally like the new characters but if your interest in Star Wars was driven by the OT cast (Or simply that you don't like the ST cast), no one can blame you for having no interest in their further adventures.

Quote:
Why move from clones to normal people being storm troopers and how did they acquire and train so many in such a short period of time?
Blame Lucas for that, he already stated that Stormtroopers from the OT are NOT Clones anymore, and they built their army in half the time the First Order did, based only on voluntary recruitment (New material indicate that the Empire did not have mandatory drafts) while the First Order started with ressources left from the Empire and kidnapped childrens by the tens of thousands (I think that trainwreck Battlefront II explores it but I'm not actually sure of that. Didn't play it.)
That being said, the lack of explanation regarding the First Order's rise is mostly due to the time frame chosen and the exagerated backlash against the politics of the Prequels (The problem was not "The politics", just that it was badly done IMO)

So yeah, you're probably not alone in thinking that Star Wars is ruined but I'm not one of them. I believe stuff needs to change over time and I'm curious (But exactly hyped) to see what they will do next. I'm just glad they are not doing things the Legends way where the Big Three were functionally immortals and they ran of villains in a matter of a single decade because they wanted to stick to the classics (And they innovated it was a disaster.)
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.20.2017 , 02:10 PM | #5
"I didn't like the movie. A few others didn't like the movie either and are vocal about it. STAR WARS IS RUINED" He says while millions of other fans love the movie and are largely positive about it. A vocal minority proclaims Star Wars as ruined and dead, surely it must be true! /sarcasm

If you didn't like the movie, I am very sorry to hear that. It's a great pity. Yet don't claim something is ruined just because you didn't like it. It may be ruined for you only, although I completely fail to see why The Last Jedi would ruin anything for anyone because nothing in it would in my opinion be that bad. People hold onto what they wanted to be in the movie too much and because their vision for what was to come didn't happen they hate it. Sorry to break it to those people, but the story isn't yours to tell. You loved it? Great! You hated it? Too bad, but you have to move on. A billion dollar company won't stop whatever they are doing just because a few people don't like the direction while majority does.
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Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
12.20.2017 , 02:15 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
snip
Quality is not a democracy. McDolands is not quality food if millions of people are fans of it and it is profitable.
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Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.20.2017 , 02:19 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Quality is not a democracy. McDolands is not quality food if millions of people are fans of it and it is profitable.
But in terms of art, quality is not objective. So saying that some people hate the movie is no more valid an argument on its quality than saying most people like it makes it a good movie.
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Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
12.20.2017 , 02:27 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
But in terms of art, quality is not objective. So saying that some people hate the movie is no more valid an argument on its quality than saying most people like it makes it a good movie.
So you basically confirm my point? Either that or you deny there are some objective means to measure things.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.20.2017 , 02:32 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Quality is not a democracy. McDolands is not quality food if millions of people are fans of it and it is profitable.
When it comes to things like food... but art, theatre, music, movies? Those are all subjective. Their quality is chosen by democracy. When many people like art in a museum, it is considered to have quality. If many don't like it, it is deemed to have no quality. Surely you recognise that the subject of "quality" applies differently in different contexts. A painting can be made with the cheapest paint there is but still considered to be a quality painting if it speaks to the tastes of a majority of people who see it. The same is with movies like the Last Jedi.

An example: many people adore modern art and consider it to be quality art with pricetags that are unbelievable on it. I hate modern art, but my opinion is but one against thousands. If majority consider modern art to be quality art, then my lone opinion will do nothing against it being considered quality art. I personally can view it as inferior to classic art, but my personal opinion does not diminish the value of modern art because a majority is fond of it.
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Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
12.20.2017 , 02:35 PM | #10
This never had anything to do with the quantity of the people liking it, but their quality. Most of EU fans ,deeply versed in Star Wars don't like the movie, their opinion is all that matters to me.

Ofc the average joe is gonna see some space ships and force powers and some sabers are gonna say wooohoo star wars , awesome! Especially when it comes to Force Awakens.

And i am sure some1 will say, if not here, then to themselves i am versed in the EU and i like it. Bollocks. Just wait till the hype leaves.
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