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Carnage Rotation Advice (for the new mara players)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
Carnage Rotation Advice (for the new mara players)

RACATW's Avatar


RACATW
12.09.2017 , 08:45 PM | #1
For anyone new to mara in PvP (or PvE) wondering what the new rotation is after the carnage nerf, it is: carnage into anni or fury.


I hope this simple guide helps you!

WiththeForc's Avatar


WiththeForc
12.10.2017 , 04:50 PM | #2
My name's Beastfury and I approve this message.
<Hatred> <Zorz> <Failure><It's Lit>
All 8-man content cleared on-tier pre-4.0, 4.0, and
5.0

Malterras's Avatar


Malterras
01.19.2018 , 09:27 AM | #3
Pretty much sums it up. after running carnage for years i have caved in to the fury faceroll.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.19.2018 , 07:18 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Malterras View Post
Pretty much sums it up. after running carnage for years i have caved in to the fury faceroll.
There goes another one....tut...tut...tut....

Enjoy Fury, everyone else is heh


<<Back at the Carnage Cave>>

Hello? OOooo.....

Anyone else out there? EeEeeee.....

.......... Bueler...Bueler....Bueler.....

Shyt...
~ I am Grim.


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

omaan's Avatar


omaan
01.20.2018 , 07:48 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by RACATW View Post
For anyone new to mara in PvP (or PvE) wondering what the new rotation is after the carnage nerf, it is: carnage into anni or fury.


I hope this simple guide helps you!
As expected devs just made carnage being useless. Incompetent combat team.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.20.2018 , 04:24 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
As expected devs just made carnage being useless. Incompetent combat team.
Another thing we agree on.

It wasn't just a nerf, it was an identity change. Carnage was all about skill, lighting reflexs, high learning curve, high risk/high reward. When you did it right, the rewards were sweet, when it you did it wrong you paid for it.

I still play it, and I can do decently with it in PVP, but the fact remains whatever I'm doing with it now, I would be doing better had 5.6 not performed a vasectomy on it.

Is it more reliable? Sure it is, it's reliable mediocrity and something no one asked for. It use to be the fastest spec in the game, now it's a DPS loss to run high alacrity with it unless you are spanking a dummy or a tank and spank boss.

To be fair, there are some people who do like it this way, and that's their right, no accounting for taste. But those that say they do better with it this way than when it still required significant skill for optimal performance, those were people who were missing attacks in the windows and had a harder time maximizing it's uptime [which admittedly was challenging and is not intended as an insult to anyone].

The way it is now, it's no different than pre 5.6 Carnage you missed the 4 attack in the Beserk ferocity window and the 3rd attack in the non-beserk Ferocity window which you didn't even need to clip to get into it if you timing it correctly.

They stated the reason for the change was they wanted to remove clipping as it's effects were unintended [which is BS, why the hell else would the spec need a +30% alacrity bonus which is an insane amount of alacrity] despite the fact it had gone through three entire metas that way and they never said a word about clipping. There is no way they didn't know clipping was going on for 4 years. - Regardless, the reason being clipping was what was sited.

So how do they get rid of clipping effects? They leave the ability to clip exactly like always, you can still clip. Brilliant reasoning there. Not only do they leave clipping, they take an attack away from the non-berserk ferocity window even thought you didn't need to clip it in the first place.

3 instant attacks, a 3 second ferocity window. Even I can do that math and I'm a total moron.

We had just had our DPS nerfed in 5.2. 5.6 came along and was a utility changing patch. Every single change on the list BW sited for 5.6 listed the class/the spec/ the name of the utility being changed, how it has worked up til than, and what changes were being made to it and the reasons why. - Every spec except for Carnage that is.

They listed no utility for Carnage, gave no name of one, because clipping had nothing to do with utilities, so what do they do? They say, ok, we're going to just nerf your DPS even more, despite that u just got nerfed in 5.2, despite the fact that you didn't need to clip into the non-beserk feroicity window and even had that pointed out to them. Didn't matter, they over nerfed it anyway, - Clipping bought you one extra attack in the berserk window [DST], now two [cumulative] in both windows.

Carnage has been nerfed more times and harder than any other spec in the game in 5.x. A pure DPS class. No heals, that can serve no other purpose other than DPS.

How exactly they can justify classes that can off tank, off heal, have perma stealth, have self heals, can guard other people in DPS spec, can taunt people in DPS, can skank tank, can bring people back from the dead in combat, can teleport, have 5x the range, have more CCs and also have raid buffs, having higher DPS than a Marauder is beyond BS.

No one needs a Marauder to run fast, every class in the game has it's own movement enhancing abilities, and Marauders are not the only class with raid buffs [Sorcs, Assassins, Mercs, etc].

What else is there besides those two things they can offer? DPS. - That is all they are, that is all they do, that's all they've ever done. I wouldn't care so much had they not taken so much from Carnage and just thrown it to Fury to build them up. Fury has better burst than carnage, better sustain than carnage, better mobility than Carnage and Anni, better uptime that Carnage and Anni and everything else Marauders get.

I have no issue with that they wanted to buff Fury, it deserved to be buffed, but they didn't have to do it at the expense of another spec that was loved by so many.

There is not one reason to bring a Carnage Marauder instead of a Fury Marauder into any raid at all. Fury is better than carnage in every single way, and not by a small amount, a lot better.

All they needed to do was remove the possibility of clipping, simply make it not possible. That was the stated goal. Had they done that, the spec would have lost the 4th attack in the berserk window, but would have still been able to get the 3rd one in on the non-berserk window which would have saved the spec a considerable amount of DPS loss that was taken without just cause or reason. Furthermore, and even more importantly, it would have preserved the spec's play style and would not have changed it's very identity. Alacrity is more useful for Anni and Fury now, than it is for Carnage and that Berserk ability alacrity bonus that Carnage still has does nothing for the spec save what alacrity does for ever other spec, which makes it nothing unique. There is absolutely no possible reason for a spec to need that much alacrity anymore.

You can still run a high alacrity build on carnage, that is certainly possible and that would make it feel much more like it use to be [though wouldn't return the DPS it lost of course], the irony is, if you do, the speediest spec in the game will suffer a DPS loss for it. - Because that makes sense. If you are fighting a dummy or spanking a stationary boss, that's great, but the other 95% of the time, that build is a straight up DPS loss in actual combat.
So the choice is, run the high alacrity build because it feels great and that's how we've grown use to it, or try and mitigate some of the insane amount of DPS loss to the spec in 5.6 and run a higher power/critical build.

I wish the power/critical build wasn't better for the spec than the higher alacrity one, it just not as fun to play, but you'd just be hurting your DPS. You can get away with it, sure, it's not massive difference [I'd estimate about approximately 150], but for a pure DPS spec who's already lost a ton of DPS, I can't see adding to that intentionally. But if you are very performance orientated, you can't miss it.

I can see the difference in PVP too, which I couldn't after 5.2 nerf, but the difference is not as noticeable as if you are parsing while doing content. The difference is still there though. Even still, you can still do well with it, just not as well as you use to.

I was at 10.7k DPS [not on average, my best] before changes, good luck getting near that now.


High risk/high reward, that was the cornerstone of the spec, the thing people loved about it, the challenge people who mained the spec were addicted to just as much as the lighting speed. Skill mattered. That was Carnage.

Quite honestly, I'd rather they just changed the name of the spec. This isn't Carnage.

In closing, let me just say this. While I am quite happy with what was done to carnage, and I will always be unhappy with it because this is not what Carnage should be after 6 years, to suddenly have it changed so radically, this spec can still be used, it can still put up good numbers in PVP, and even with the stupidity of ferocity stacks, this is still a spec that requires skill to use because it's more nebulous now coming from what it was, and it is still unforgiving of mistakes. Furthermore, you can't even put anything you want it now. That's not a bad thing persay, but, that DST cannot be used in a Ferocity window at all, is ridiculous. - People who are new to this spec will never be on par with those who played it before this change, they just won't be pushed and they won't be tested like pre 5.6 Carnage demanded. There is no rush, there is no missing, there is only choice. Choice always makes things easy. This new "Carnage" will produce mediocre Marauders.

"Calm seas make poor Sailors"

For those who like it, that's great, more power to you, just don't forget what it cost. Don't forget that PVE matters just as much as PVP. Don't forget what you do to for one, effects the other. - You can raid with Carnage if you like and you are lucky enough to find a raid leader who let you, but you are making it harder for the rest of the team because Fury would do so much better.

Fury is too good now, it deserved a buff, but it went overboard and it made the other two specs subpar, and unfortunately that's gonna come back and smack it in the face. PVPers are already sounding the drums on it. I'd like to see all three specs where they should be, and in my opinion, that's on top. The only pure DPS class left in the game, that should matter.

I'm gonna ride the wave though, I'll keep on trying to push the limits with it.
~ I am Grim.


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
01.20.2018 , 04:47 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
They stated the reason for the change was they wanted to remove clipping as it's effects were unintended [which is BS, why the hell else would the spec need a +30% alacrity bonus which is an insane amount of alacrity] despite the fact it had gone through three entire metas that way and they never said a word about clipping. There is no way they didn't know clipping was going on for 4 years. - Regardless, the reason being clipping was what was sited.
This is not entirely accurate, I'm pretty sure they tried to address it before. Remember the whole "Gore is on the global cooldown now" and how that went down
Quote:
So how do they get rid of clipping effects? They leave the ability to clip exactly like always, you can still clip. Brilliant reasoning there. Not only do they leave clipping, they take an attack away from the non-berserk ferocity window even thought you didn't need to clip it in the first place.

3 instant attacks, a 3 second ferocity window. Even I can do that math and I'm a total moron.
Well considering the game has a global cooldow of 1.5s per ability it seems the intent was pretty clearly to be able to buff two attacks (remember the ability was made long before alacrity reduced the duration of the global cooldown). For better or worse the ability is probably closer to its original intent now, the only problem is it makes the spec lose any sort of urgency and momentum. You can just use a saber strike during your ferocity window since the stacks won't be consumed by it anyways which does kill the idea of the spec a bit.

As for all the alacrity well that's clearly a relic of the old Ravage as it was intended as a way to fit Ravage and another ability in a window, it was never intended to get a third attack in the ferocity window.

Draekier's Avatar


Draekier
01.20.2018 , 05:07 PM | #8
High alacrity brings about a dps loss for carnage. Even on a dummy.

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
01.20.2018 , 08:47 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
There goes another one....tut...tut...tut....

Enjoy Fury, everyone else is heh


<<Back at the Carnage Cave>>

Hello? OOooo.....

Anyone else out there? EeEeeee.....

.......... Bueler...Bueler....Bueler.....

Shyt...
*sitting in a lush corner. quietly smokes weed out of an expensive pipe. Stares at you waiting for you to notice his presence.
Nods at you without muttering a word, passes you the pipe*


[Carnage/Combat for life]

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
01.20.2018 , 08:53 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
This is not entirely accurate, I'm pretty sure they tried to address it before. Remember the whole "Gore is on the global cooldown now" and how that went down

Well considering the game has a global cooldow of 1.5s per ability it seems the intent was pretty clearly to be able to buff two attacks (remember the ability was made long before alacrity reduced the duration of the global cooldown). For better or worse the ability is probably closer to its original intent now, the only problem is it makes the spec lose any sort of urgency and momentum. You can just use a saber strike during your ferocity window since the stacks won't be consumed by it anyways which does kill the idea of the spec a bit.

As for all the alacrity well that's clearly a relic of the old Ravage as it was intended as a way to fit Ravage and another ability in a window, it was never intended to get a third attack in the ferocity window.
Well the first iteration of Combat/Carnage's Precision Slash/Gore was 6 seconds long, and the activation was a Global Cooldown.
Let me make two things clear
- Precision Slash out damaged Slash (Yes I'm referring to slash, NOT blade rush, even tho it stronger than both, but less damage than Lance, just to put it in your mind's eye)
- Master Strike was 3 seconds channel, which is essentially 2 GCDs, therefore whenever I refer to MS/Ravage, I'm automatically considering it being 2 GCDs

6 seconds while counting Precision Slashes actual cooldown, is 3 Global Cooldowns,
Considering the fact that Precision had a high value damage pool, suffice to say that corresponding attack is (not concrete on this) affected by it's own affect of 100% armor pen, prolly why it hit so hard.
Essentially, that's 4 GCDs, affected by 100% armor pen, not to mention Riposte/Retailiate existed for Sentinel which depending on focus levels, you could do some serious pain.
If you had the focus for it, (it was around 5 after precision), you could cram them all in, I usually popped pacify prior, to fish for that juicy Riposte.

Yeah that was the good stuff *puffs on expensive pipe*
gosh darn I miss 1.0

(I'm thinking of dropping to 9% alacrity post ataru form passive. But lazy + negative mentality, personally dont think its worth it, I don't see why I should adjust around unnecessary losses, but at the same time going past 12% alacrity is a waste of time unless you can acquire 0.2 second gcd reduction which is 14% if my maths isn't too awful)