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Couldn't The Republic And Empire Have Established Different Forms Of Alliances?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Couldn't The Republic And Empire Have Established Different Forms Of Alliances?

TonyTricicolo's Avatar


TonyTricicolo
12.07.2017 , 05:54 AM | #11
I feel at this junction of the story would be the perfect time to introduce a faction swap. It already sort of set up within the Iokath dailies where you must choose to support a side. Insert classic "omg a new threat has emerged and now you must choose to help the rebellion or stay dutifully reserved towards ihe Empire." Like a Agent Kallus (SWR) switch where he's now Fulcrum. Make a short little quest line, throw in a brief cutscene and viola! New options for players is a good thing. People can have their Republic SIS or Imperial Trooper or Dark Jedi yadda yadda yadda. All in favor? Scream yea!!
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.07.2017 , 06:08 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyTricicolo View Post
I feel at this junction of the story would be the perfect time to introduce a faction swap. It already sort of set up within the Iokath dailies where you must choose to support a side. Insert classic "omg a new threat has emerged and now you must choose to help the rebellion or stay dutifully reserved towards ihe Empire." Like a Agent Kallus (SWR) switch where he's now Fulcrum. Make a short little quest line, throw in a brief cutscene and viola! New options for players is a good thing. People can have their Republic SIS or Imperial Trooper or Dark Jedi yadda yadda yadda. All in favor? Scream yea!!
I'd like it as it seems there is a desire for such a thing. As long as we in general get the choice to abandon or disband the Eternal Alliance and return to our original factions, I'd warmly welcome a choice to also defect to the enemy of our original factions. In all of this I'd also want a choice for those who like the Alliance to remain there and lead it (but please, with a severely cut down Eternal Fleet because it's too overpowered and godmode now). As I wouldn't want anyone to suffer from playing a narrative that is being forced upon you, it's bad I can tell you from experience
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Tadagyt's Avatar


Tadagyt
12.07.2017 , 06:29 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
Same here. The one character I am playing as a completely sociopathic tyrant is my Jedi Knight who is disillusioned with the order. My Sith are of the pragmatic, logical and fairly balanced sort, and the Alliance works for them.
LOL same here! my knight is dark and my sith are more like Darth Marr. Pragmatic, logical and imperial patriots.
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IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
12.07.2017 , 09:49 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
But you misunderstand me, being Sith isn't being rude or cruel all the time and anywhere you can. That is the same mistake that KotFE and KotET make. They make it out to be that every Dark Sider is just psychotic, rude and without manners. Every Dark Side option we get is silly, very stereotypical and oftentimes not what a Sith or Imperial is at all. There is no depth to the Dark Side choices, they are just that, silly choices that make little sense and do not fit in with the story, but just are there to have a symbolical Dark Side choice. It's empty, in heavy opposition to the Light Side choices which makes it appear as if the story is meant to be played Light Side.

I don't want to be able to play as a cruel and rude Dark Side, I want to play as a true Sith, a being that seeks to impose their will upon the galaxy by increasing their power and dominance through various means, by manipulating others to set in motion their downfall and through that climb up higher the ladder of power. I want to be able to truly practice the Sith Code in the story, let my character live by it. Following the Sith Code isn't being rude and cruel to everyone and everywhere, it's much more than that and it was so prevalent in the vanilla storyline. Yes you had choices to just be cruel or rude, but they had meaning. In KotFE and KotET they are empty and just depict you as a douchebag while being Sith means so much more. That is what I miss, the traditional Sith or Imperials like we had with Palpatine in the first movies, like Darth Malgus pre-Ilum, like Darth Thanaton, Darth Vowrawn, Darth Marr or the original concept of the Sith Emperor before the entire Valkorion thing, like Darth Nyriss from the Revan novel and how skilled she was at manipulating Sith politics in her favour. In KotFE and KotET I cannot play like the traditional Sith I want to play because I either have to be a total empty douchebag who is rude and cruel for no good reason or I have to adopt the shades of gray theme.

In essence, KotFE and KotET are more black and white in my opinion than the vanilla class stories were.
You misunderstand. I don't think Sith are cruel and psycho at all (or they don't have to be any more than anyone else).

But what you are asking for is something very black and white, instead of exploring shades of gray, and my point is, I feel that whatever stereotype you're after, KOTFE/KOTET does give you the choices to do that.

I know we have been through this before, and we fundamentally and very significantly disagree with what it means to be Sith or Imperial. I think there's a huge range of experiences, motivations and graduations there. As I recall, you do believe a "true Sith" only believes and behaves in a very set way with very set motivations, hence your wanting "Sith to be Sith." I know we will not agree on that, so I won't go into it again.

JennyFlynn's Avatar


JennyFlynn
12.07.2017 , 03:06 PM | #15
I'd like to see them put an 'end' to KOTFE/ET and return us to our roots in a manner that works for most players. For instance, bring us around to a final/transit chapter in which we're given a choice;
- Remain Emperor/Empress/Peacekeeper.
- Relinquish the Eternal Throne to a successor who'll remain a contact/ally we can call on but we're no longer in charge or responsible.
Then return us back to the classic storytelling (Empire vs. Republic with more focus on the individuality of classes) while not fully wiping out the existence of the Alliance for those who enjoy having it. A Trooper who became Peacekeeper and chose to remain in charge of the Alliance will now be referred to as Peacekeeper wherever they go and get the occasional call back to Odessen for little things. Likewise, a Trooper who relinquished their Alliance goes back to being Major and is recalled to Coruscant.

Or bring things around to include 'defecting' of sorts through a system akin to Light vs. Dark but in this case a one-time faction alignment;
- Represent Alliance
- Represent Empire
- Represent Republic
and go from there. While we play through the story, not only do we fight for Light vs. Dark but there's an additional representation marking our faction choice. Of course, there would be limits given how the game was designed but there's an instanced version of Kaas City already used in CH2 of KOTET and that same instance could be re-used for defecting members, allowing a Jedi Knight to report to the Citadel rather than Jedi Temple on Tython. Or just open up galaxy map travel based on faction representation and add an 'allied' marker to prevent flagging in a previously hostile territory (allied-Jedi for example).

Probably all too far-fetched or complicated, especially the defecting aspect but essentially, there are ways of creating a 'going forward' to appease most players. If there's a will, there is a way. I do believe if the creative team puts their heads together and explore the issue, they can find something that'll work for most (no not all, that's impossible) players.
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Celise's Avatar


Celise
12.07.2017 , 04:58 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I have been thinking about it just now and I have come to realise what one of the main reasons is why I hate the Alliance in its current form so much. It is because it makes completely no sense for an Imperial character to establish a faction that is all about cooperation, "we all work together!" mentality and "fighting the good fight!". Those are all phrases and aspects that perfectly fit Republic characters, heck, the Jedi Consular already established an alliance in their class story. Yet as I said, the Alliance and establishing it in its current form contradicts everything the Sith and Imperials are and that is what bothers me so heavily about the Eternal Alliance. The Sith are dominant, manipulating, authoritarian and relentless. I don't see that reflected in the Alliance even if we try to force it with Dark Side choices, the narrative still forces Republic values onto our Imperial characters.

So I ask this: why couldn't the Alliance in its current form be the Republic version of the story about forming the Alliance and commanding it, while Sith and Imperial characters would have established something else, something based on Sith and Imperial values.

In my opinion Sith and Imperial characters should have established a sort of "shadow empire" in KotFE and KotET. It's not something out of the realm of possibility in Star Wars since essentially it was what the Sith Triumvirate from KOTOR 2 under Darth Traya was. We could have established a faction that would strike at Zakuul and throughout the galaxy unseen, from the shadows, clandestinely and stealthily, manipulating events to set chain reactions in motion through infiltration and assassinations. Such an organisation alike what Darth Traya led after Revan's/Malak's Sith Empire had fallen during the Jedi Purge pre-KOTOR 2, and subsequently what Darth Nihilus and Sion commanded, would have fitted the Sith and Imperial characters so much better. The main story could have been largely if not entirely the same, only the execution of the Alliance, as what it was established and how it was commanded would be different.

But that would have been welcome, that would have made KotFE and KotET feel so much more fun. It would add to the repeatability value of the story because there would be a distinction between an Empire playthrough and a Republic one. I guess the famous "missed opportunity" once more applies to KotFE and KotET. Two expansions which are filled to the brink with missed opportunities.
The Empire and Republic are more alike than you realise. The Republic can't function without some form of conflict within the senate and war with the military and the Sith Empire can't remain as is without some form of cooperation between it's leaders and peace between the various factions and their powerbases.

They are exactly the same, only difference being the official emblem and idealogy, but in the end even the idealogy is the same as the Republic. The Republic strives for freedom and to serve a greater goal, exactly as the Sith and Imperials look for. leadership doesn't matter, power is power in the hands of individuals and they bicker amoungst themselves and some form of coperation is required to do anything, same in the Empire on the dark council.

So in reality a Sith working to build an alliance of cooperation and peace isn't any different from a Jedi looking to build an alliance on needing to fight for ones belief or needing to be seperate from everyone while contemplating their own needs and or ambitions.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.08.2017 , 06:42 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by JennyFlynn View Post
I'd like to see them put an 'end' to KOTFE/ET and return us to our roots in a manner that works for most players. For instance, bring us around to a final/transit chapter in which we're given a choice;
- Remain Emperor/Empress/Peacekeeper.
- Relinquish the Eternal Throne to a successor who'll remain a contact/ally we can call on but we're no longer in charge or responsible.
Then return us back to the classic storytelling (Empire vs. Republic with more focus on the individuality of classes) while not fully wiping out the existence of the Alliance for those who enjoy having it. A Trooper who became Peacekeeper and chose to remain in charge of the Alliance will now be referred to as Peacekeeper wherever they go and get the occasional call back to Odessen for little things. Likewise, a Trooper who relinquished their Alliance goes back to being Major and is recalled to Coruscant.
I 100% agree with this and hope so hard that this will be an actual choice given to us. The developers really have to understand part of the playerbase is coming to hate the narrative and storytelling of this game more and more, for exactly the reason that there is no choice in KotFE and KotET like the one you described. The developers have to understand that the playerbase will keep declining unless they add a choice into the narrative alike what you wrote in the bit I quoted. Many players came here for story, if they don't get the story they want, they'll leave for a game that does give them what they want.

I really want to see this game do well. I really want this game to be successful. It is why I passionately plead the developers to add a choice for our characters to return to the Republic or Empire and abandon the Alliance. I beg the developers to allow for those who are done with the Eternal Alliance narrative to be able to fully return to their original factions. Or defect to the enemy, that is also fine. The point remains, we need to have a choice whether we want to continue the Alliance narrative or return to an Imperial/Republic one. Forcing one or the other on all players in a "one size fits all" type of storytelling will be heavily detrimental to the game and the playerbase.
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