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Couldn't The Republic And Empire Have Established Different Forms Of Alliances?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Couldn't The Republic And Empire Have Established Different Forms Of Alliances?

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.07.2017 , 02:30 AM | #1
I have been thinking about it just now and I have come to realise what one of the main reasons is why I hate the Alliance in its current form so much. It is because it makes completely no sense for an Imperial character to establish a faction that is all about cooperation, "we all work together!" mentality and "fighting the good fight!". Those are all phrases and aspects that perfectly fit Republic characters, heck, the Jedi Consular already established an alliance in their class story. Yet as I said, the Alliance and establishing it in its current form contradicts everything the Sith and Imperials are and that is what bothers me so heavily about the Eternal Alliance. The Sith are dominant, manipulating, authoritarian and relentless. I don't see that reflected in the Alliance even if we try to force it with Dark Side choices, the narrative still forces Republic values onto our Imperial characters.

So I ask this: why couldn't the Alliance in its current form be the Republic version of the story about forming the Alliance and commanding it, while Sith and Imperial characters would have established something else, something based on Sith and Imperial values.

In my opinion Sith and Imperial characters should have established a sort of "shadow empire" in KotFE and KotET. It's not something out of the realm of possibility in Star Wars since essentially it was what the Sith Triumvirate from KOTOR 2 under Darth Traya was. We could have established a faction that would strike at Zakuul and throughout the galaxy unseen, from the shadows, clandestinely and stealthily, manipulating events to set chain reactions in motion through infiltration and assassinations. Such an organisation alike what Darth Traya led after Revan's/Malak's Sith Empire had fallen during the Jedi Purge pre-KOTOR 2, and subsequently what Darth Nihilus and Sion commanded, would have fitted the Sith and Imperial characters so much better. The main story could have been largely if not entirely the same, only the execution of the Alliance, as what it was established and how it was commanded would be different.

But that would have been welcome, that would have made KotFE and KotET feel so much more fun. It would add to the repeatability value of the story because there would be a distinction between an Empire playthrough and a Republic one. I guess the famous "missed opportunity" once more applies to KotFE and KotET. Two expansions which are filled to the brink with missed opportunities.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
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NHBabe
12.07.2017 , 02:51 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
But that would have been welcome, that would have made KotFE and KotET feel so much more fun. It would add to the repeatability value of the story because there would be a distinction between an Empire playthrough and a Republic one. I guess the famous "missed opportunity" once more applies to KotFE and KotET. Two expansions which are filled to the brink with missed opportunities.
I agree with everything you said but kept just that part as it sums up nicely how I've felt about it. Trying this "one-size fits all" approach to the story was very wrong. It is one thing to have force users of different factions basically having the same story now, but to include non-force using classes as well? I'm sorry, it just doesn't feel right when I play my "shooting classes" when compared to playing my "force classes". When you then factor in the Republic and Empire it makes things that much worse, for me at least.

I honestly wish they had split it up by force and non-force, and then by faction. It would have made the replay more interesting and given us more reasons to do so. It is almost like what happened with Ilum, Makeb, and Oricon. Many people I've talked to over the years only do those planets once for each faction, and then never bother to do them again. The quests just stay on the terminal, or in the case of Ilum, in their mission log.

I think they had a HUGE opportunity to continue something great, but got lost along the way. Now, I fear, it may be too late. Our characters have moved so far away from what they were and unfortunately where they are now at isn't exactly a place all would agree is good or bad. Some like the story, others not so much. Trying to balance that out now and appease most is not going to be easy.

Many people are here for the STORY, and that is sorely lacking right now. How many are going to be willing to stay another 3-6 months for another 5 minute clip of story?
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IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
12.07.2017 , 03:32 AM | #3
Both the Empire and Republic have people that are pragmatic and cooperative. Both also have people that are corrupt and merciless. And on both sides, the player can choose at numerous points in their story to ally or cooperate with those outside their factions.

The alliance that is formed is much like the one from SoR; people from all factions working for a common goal. IMHO it would have been a mistake to assume that an Imperial or Republic Commander would behave a certain way. They might be an Imperial like Darth Marr that wants to work with those who can help, or a Pub like Saresh who is corrupt as the day is long.

What they could have done IMHO: Added more choices for the Commander as to how they'd run their alliance; in line with the choice in Chapter 9 to give an oppressive or a supportive speech (not limited by faction) and the choice in Iokath to spy or not.

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Asmodesu
12.07.2017 , 04:07 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
What they could have done IMHO: Added more choices for the Commander as to how they'd run their alliance; in line with the choice in Chapter 9 to give an oppressive or a supportive speech (not limited by faction) and the choice in Iokath to spy or not.
I definitely would have loved more chocies and stuff throughout KotFE/KotET even though that's impossible now, maybe they might consider more options in the future. I would have much preferred a less "one type of Commander" story.
I do not agree with OP thanks to the fact only one of my Sith characters are so "Sith-like" my others are pragmatic, logical and the current way the Alliance is shown is perfect for them. Where-as my trooper would be more of the tyrant/dictator then all bar one of my Sith so splitting it so stereotypically would really suck. My Smuggler and Agent needed a nope - end story here/game over and disappear forever choice, the commanding the Alliance thing doesn't suit either of them. Well they do have that choice, I didn't take one of my smugglers very far through. lol. I also thought personally the whole Smuggler in charge thing was hilarious, if odd.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.07.2017 , 04:32 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
Both the Empire and Republic have people that are pragmatic and cooperative. Both also have people that are corrupt and merciless. And on both sides, the player can choose at numerous points in their story to ally or cooperate with those outside their factions.

The alliance that is formed is much like the one from SoR; people from all factions working for a common goal. IMHO it would have been a mistake to assume that an Imperial or Republic Commander would behave a certain way. They might be an Imperial like Darth Marr that wants to work with those who can help, or a Pub like Saresh who is corrupt as the day is long.

What they could have done IMHO: Added more choices for the Commander as to how they'd run their alliance; in line with the choice in Chapter 9 to give an oppressive or a supportive speech (not limited by faction) and the choice in Iokath to spy or not.
Yes, we could pick those who joined us and who didn't (not always though) but does it affect how the Alliance operates? No, that is the problem, it doesn't have a single effect on the Alliance as a whole. We only get extra companions that act as interchangeable furniture. We still get an Alliance that is evidently meant to be played as a Republic and Light Side character. Believe me, I have tried enjoying the story of the Alliance as a pragmatic Imperial or Sith, but even then I felt completely out of place in the Alliance unless I had my characters adopt Republic values. That is not what I want, my Sith are Sith, my Imperials are Imperials, that's it. The current form of the Alliance is incredibly restrictive when you want it to reflect Sith or Imperial ideology.

It's why I disagree with you (which is fine naturally, everyone their own) and do think that an Imperial/Sith character would lead a different form of faction than a Republic or Jedi toon. Just look at both the Republic and Empire, two factions with opposite ideologies incapable of forming a synthesis. That is good, that is what the roots of SWTOR were, 2 factions with distinct ideologies that were one another's opposites. With the Alliance however you are forced to play a Light Side Republic individual or pragmatic Light Side Sith/Imperial. I don't want that, I like traditional Star Wars were a Sith is a Sith, a follower of the Dark Side and an Imperial believes the Republic is evil and needs to be destroyed or the Empire will be destroyed by them and their Jedi defenders. I want to be able to lead a resistance against Arcann as a true Sith or Imperial, which is why I think two distinct forms of an Alliance are a grand missed opportunity.

As I said, the "alternative side" flavour is interesting but we have enough of it in the new movies. Must it also happen in SWTOR? Why can't we just stick with traditional Star Wars at least in this game? Or if people want to explore the alternative side thing, then for the love of all that is good give us also the choice to play it in a traditional Star Wars manner. Don't force the alternative side thing onto everyone.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
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IoNonSoEVero
12.07.2017 , 04:39 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodesu View Post
I definitely would have loved more chocies and stuff throughout KotFE/KotET even though that's impossible now, maybe they might consider more options in the future. I would have much preferred a less "one type of Commander" story.
I do not agree with OP thanks to the fact only one of my Sith characters are so "Sith-like" my others are pragmatic, logical and the current way the Alliance is shown is perfect for them. Where-as my trooper would be more of the tyrant/dictator then all bar one of my Sith so splitting it so stereotypically would really suck. My Smuggler and Agent needed a nope - end story here/game over and disappear forever choice, the commanding the Alliance thing doesn't suit either of them. Well they do have that choice, I didn't take one of my smugglers very far through. lol. I also thought personally the whole Smuggler in charge thing was hilarious, if odd.
Same here. The one character I am playing as a completely sociopathic tyrant is my Jedi Knight who is disillusioned with the order. My Sith are of the pragmatic, logical and fairly balanced sort, and the Alliance works for them.

I do think that being the Alliance commander doesn't make much sense for the BH/Smuggler, though, and IMHO not much for the two other classes that are not Force sensitive. It's a shame they couldn't have worked those into the story somehow. Like maybe the Smuggler could have had Hylo's job in the Alliance and her story would revolve around those sorts of missions, and the Trooper could be a critical player on missions with Beywo and the military wing. The Agent could have been sent undercover to Zakuul. Etc.

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IoNonSoEVero
12.07.2017 , 04:55 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Yes, we could pick those who joined us and who didn't (not always though) but does it affect how the Alliance operates? No, that is the problem, it doesn't have a single effect on the Alliance as a whole. We only get extra companions that act as interchangeable furniture. We still get an Alliance that is evidently meant to be played as a Republic and Light Side character. Believe me, I have tried enjoying the story of the Alliance as a pragmatic Imperial or Sith, but even then I felt completely out of place in the Alliance unless I had my characters adopt Republic values. That is not what I want, my Sith are Sith, my Imperials are Imperials, that's it. The current form of the Alliance is incredibly restrictive when you want it to reflect Sith or Imperial ideology.

It's why I disagree with you (which is fine naturally, everyone their own) and do think that an Imperial/Sith character would lead a different form of faction than a Republic or Jedi toon. Just look at both the Republic and Empire, two factions with opposite ideologies incapable of forming a synthesis. That is good, that is what the roots of SWTOR were, 2 factions with distinct ideologies that were one another's opposites. With the Alliance however you are forced to play a Light Side Republic individual or pragmatic Light Side Sith/Imperial. I don't want that, I like traditional Star Wars were a Sith is a Sith, a follower of the Dark Side and an Imperial believes the Republic is evil and needs to be destroyed or the Empire will be destroyed by them and their Jedi defenders. I want to be able to lead a resistance against Arcann as a true Sith or Imperial, which is why I think two distinct forms of an Alliance are a grand missed opportunity.

As I said, the "alternative side" flavour is interesting but we have enough of it in the new movies. Must it also happen in SWTOR? Why can't we just stick with traditional Star Wars at least in this game? Or if people want to explore the alternative side thing, then for the love of all that is good give us also the choice to play it in a traditional Star Wars manner. Don't force the alternative side thing onto everyone.
IMHO that's only true if one takes a very rigid view of what it means to be a Sith or Imperial, and that they are all going to behave a certain way. It's entirely possible to play the Alliance in shades of grey, and in some cases, the 'light side' choice isn't the one the NPCs in the Alliance actually want. Case in point, saving Arcann- it might be considered the light side choice, but it is one that is questioned. Siding with the Republic in Iokath means scr***ng over the Sith Empire that supported the Alliance in the battle against Vaylin. And so on.

There's no such thing as "Republic values" IMHO. The Republic had just as much, if not more, corruption than the Empire. They had Saresh who only had an interest in Makeb because she thought she was going to get something out of it; the Jedi who released Revan from prison and put him in charge of a factory of droids planning genocide against anyone with Sith heritage, and so on. Half of Coruscant is a slum run by gangs. The only difference between the Republic and the Empire, IMHO, is that the former pays lip service to some sort of virtue while the latter is what it is.

My main toon cut down Arcann, Senya, Vaylin and Quinn without thinking twice, but also took care not to kill civilians in Zakuul, was very loyal to her Alliance and chose to become a peacekeeper. Things aren't always black and white.

At any rate, from this and other posts, it's clear that KOTFE/KOTET isn't your thing - and I'm sorry for that. It stinks when one doesn't enjoy a big part of the game. But for me, being forced into a stereotypical role based on faction would be just as unenjoyable.

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Ylliarus
12.07.2017 , 05:16 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
IMHO that's only true if one takes a very rigid view of what it means to be a Sith or Imperial, and that they are all going to behave a certain way. It's entirely possible to play the Alliance in shades of grey, and in some cases, the 'light side' choice isn't the one the NPCs in the Alliance actually want. Case in point, saving Arcann- it might be considered the light side choice, but it is one that is questioned. Siding with the Republic in Iokath means scr***ng over the Sith Empire that supported the Alliance in the battle against Vaylin. And so on.

There's no such thing as "Republic values" IMHO. The Republic had just as much, if not more, corruption than the Empire. They had Saresh who only had an interest in Makeb because she thought she was going to get something out of it; the Jedi who released Revan from prison and put him in charge of a factory of droids planning genocide against anyone with Sith heritage, and so on. Half of Coruscant is a slum run by gangs. The only difference between the Republic and the Empire, IMHO, is that the former pays lip service to some sort of virtue while the latter is what it is.

My main toon cut down Arcann, Senya, Vaylin and Quinn without thinking twice, but also took care not to kill civilians in Zakuul, was very loyal to her Alliance and chose to become a peacekeeper. Things aren't always black and white.

At any rate, from this and other posts, it's clear that KOTFE/KOTET isn't your thing - and I'm sorry for that. It stinks when one doesn't enjoy a big part of the game. But for me, being forced into a stereotypical role based on faction would be just as unenjoyable.
Which is why I have been begging the devs for a choice to be able to play the stereotypical, traditional Jedi or Sith, Republic or Imperial. Sure, the "shades of gray" thing is interesting but it is being overdone now. It's everywhere, in the movies, in the books, in Rebels and now even in SWTOR. And if it was a choice in SWTOR, KotFE and KotET I would have had not a single complaint. But with those two expansions it is forced upon us, we have to have this "shades of gray" flavour and can't choose to ignore it and stick to traditional Star Wars. I wouldn't have minded to explore it on a few characters, I would have even found it enjoyable. What I do not find enjoyable is that I am forced to explore and wade in shades of gray while I want to be playing something else. It's the same with the Alliance thing, I don't want to be part of it or leading it on every toon. Sure, for a few toons and the way I play them the Alliance suits them, but majority are Republic or Empire loyalists and die-hards. But the choice to let them return to Empire or Republic? Nowhere to be seen.

That is why I do most certainly understand what you say and agree to an extent, but nonetheless I have suffered through the new story updates on most characters because the Alliance, the shades of gray and the alternative side is forced upon me on every single playthrough. I would have graded KotFE and KotET much better if it wasn't forced upon us.

I mean, KotFE and KotET pushed me to delete characters I had been playing for years just so that I could undo them having gone through those two expansions and reclaim the magic and feeling of the vanilla class stories again. I'd prefer to replay the old stories pre-KotFE a thousand times rather than play the two new expansions. I get that it's a matter of subjective tastes but it still says something in my opinion. Or the fact that I'd rather roleplay with other people and create our own stories rather than endure the Commander/Outlander storyline again.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
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IoNonSoEVero
12.07.2017 , 05:36 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Which is why I have been begging the devs for a choice to be able to play the stereotypical, traditional Jedi or Sith, Republic or Imperial. Sure, the "shades of gray" thing is interesting but it is being overdone now. It's everywhere, in the movies, in the books, in Rebels and now even in SWTOR. And if it was a choice in SWTOR, KotFE and KotET I would have had not a single complaint. But with those two expansions it is forced upon us, we have to have this "shades of gray" flavour and can't choose to ignore it and stick to traditional Star Wars. I wouldn't have minded to explore it on a few characters, I would have even found it enjoyable. What I do not find enjoyable is that I am forced to explore and wade in shades of gray while I want to be playing something else. It's the same with the Alliance thing, I don't want to be part of it or leading it on every toon. Sure, for a few toons and the way I play them the Alliance suits them, but majority are Republic or Empire loyalists and die-hards. But the choice to let them return to Empire or Republic? Nowhere to be seen.

That is why I do most certainly understand what you say and agree to an extent, but nonetheless I have suffered through the new story updates on most characters because the Alliance, the shades of gray and the alternative side is forced upon me on every single playthrough. I would have graded KotFE and KotET much better if it wasn't forced upon us.

I mean, KotFE and KotET pushed me to delete characters I had been playing for years just so that I could undo them having gone through those two expansions and reclaim the magic and feeling of the vanilla class stories again. I'd prefer to replay the old stories pre-KotFE a thousand times rather than play the two new expansions. I get that it's a matter of subjective tastes but it still says something in my opinion. Or the fact that I'd rather roleplay with other people and create our own stories rather than endure the Commander/Outlander storyline again.

But what is stopping one from playing KOTFE/KOTET as rigidly as you want, as well? You can kill off a fair number of the companions both in returning story and in the Alliance Alerts, you can choose to use allies like Indo Zal for your own benefit, and you can try to kill people who have helped you, like Satele, and be rude to others. What's to stop someone from choosing every single cruel choice and playing an Alliance commander as despotic as possible, if that's what you'd like to do? There are convo choices that allow you to basically create a Commander who clearly is taking over everything for their own benefit. Similarly if you want to play your Commander as a completely selfless person who should have a halo, that is possible too.

I don't think the Commander storyline works for non-Force users, and as mentioned, it's a pity they couldn't work them into the story in other important ways. But I felt it was just as ridiculous for the BH and Trooper to be the one person who could take down Revan in SoR when they had several very strong Force users standing there watching the fight.

I personally feel that the shades of grey make the world much richer and more interesting, but I do recognize that and respect that there are people who prefer a more black and white approach to the Star Wars universe. IMHO while there were issues with KOTFE/KOTET that can still happen if one wants it, though.

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Ylliarus
12.07.2017 , 05:54 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
But what is stopping one from playing KOTFE/KOTET as rigidly as you want, as well? You can kill off a fair number of the companions both in returning story and in the Alliance Alerts, you can choose to use allies like Indo Zal for your own benefit, and you can try to kill people who have helped you, like Satele, and be rude to others. What's to stop someone from choosing every single cruel choice and playing an Alliance commander as despotic as possible, if that's what you'd like to do? There are convo choices that allow you to basically create a Commander who clearly is taking over everything for their own benefit. Similarly if you want to play your Commander as a completely selfless person who should have a halo, that is possible too.

I don't think the Commander storyline works for non-Force users, and as mentioned, it's a pity they couldn't work them into the story in other important ways. But I felt it was just as ridiculous for the BH and Trooper to be the one person who could take down Revan in SoR when they had several very strong Force users standing there watching the fight.

I personally feel that the shades of grey make the world much richer and more interesting, but I do recognize that and respect that there are people who prefer a more black and white approach to the Star Wars universe. IMHO while there were issues with KOTFE/KOTET that can still happen if one wants it, though.
But you misunderstand me, being Sith isn't being rude or cruel all the time and anywhere you can. That is the same mistake that KotFE and KotET make. They make it out to be that every Dark Sider is just psychotic, rude and without manners. Every Dark Side option we get is silly, very stereotypical and oftentimes not what a Sith or Imperial is at all. There is no depth to the Dark Side choices, they are just that, silly choices that make little sense and do not fit in with the story, but just are there to have a symbolical Dark Side choice. It's empty, in heavy opposition to the Light Side choices which makes it appear as if the story is meant to be played Light Side.

I don't want to be able to play as a cruel and rude Dark Side, I want to play as a true Sith, a being that seeks to impose their will upon the galaxy by increasing their power and dominance through various means, by manipulating others to set in motion their downfall and through that climb up higher the ladder of power. I want to be able to truly practice the Sith Code in the story, let my character live by it. Following the Sith Code isn't being rude and cruel to everyone and everywhere, it's much more than that and it was so prevalent in the vanilla storyline. Yes you had choices to just be cruel or rude, but they had meaning. In KotFE and KotET they are empty and just depict you as a douchebag while being Sith means so much more. That is what I miss, the traditional Sith or Imperials like we had with Palpatine in the first movies, like Darth Malgus pre-Ilum, like Darth Thanaton, Darth Vowrawn, Darth Marr or the original concept of the Sith Emperor before the entire Valkorion thing, like Darth Nyriss from the Revan novel and how skilled she was at manipulating Sith politics in her favour. In KotFE and KotET I cannot play like the traditional Sith I want to play because I either have to be a total empty douchebag who is rude and cruel for no good reason or I have to adopt the shades of gray theme.

In essence, KotFE and KotET are more black and white in my opinion than the vanilla class stories were.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!