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So, I just finished SoR, and Charles Boyd was full of it with his KOTFE Retcon

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
So, I just finished SoR, and Charles Boyd was full of it with his KOTFE Retcon

Xina_LA's Avatar


Xina_LA
12.07.2017 , 03:16 PM | #61
I think the idea of offering specific suggestions or pointing out specific problems is a good one.

Here are my problems with KOTET/KOTFE --

1) It assumes everyone is a Force-user. It makes everyone into Force-user, at least when creating a new weapon. It doesn't give any good explanation for this. The story could at least have said we were secretly Force-sensitive or something. Honestly, it would have been better NOT to require everyone to be so caught up in the Force.

2) There aren't enough story paths, so it's only fun to play through twice. (Light side and dark side.) After that, it's a repetitive slog. The best you can hope for is some minor variation in dialog. It ought to be fun at least once for each class.

3) The power level escalated too far, too fast. The writers painted themselves into a corner. Now you're the Alliance Commander with a giant fleet at your beck and call, yet somehow you still get involved in petty drama and fly around to take care of things personally. Sometimes it makes sense, but usually it doesn't. Taking the Alliance away at this point would probably be a hackneyed TV trope.


Here are ways to fix it --

1) Take Light and Dark alignment into account better. For example, if a Light-side person sits on the throne, treat them like a transitional government leader or benevolent ruler, not an evil despot.

2) Add more variety of outcomes, at least for the "side scenes". The story shouldn't feel identical every time. The second trip to Iokath was some better in this regard, due to the faction choice and return of companions. We at least need more potential outcomes in casual encounters, even if they don't make a long term difference.

3) Don't assume everyone is a Force-user or Force-sensitive. Perhaps this would be easier if our enemies weren't insanely powerful Force-users. How about some clever Moriarty style foes, instead? Don't forget to check for plot holes.

3a) No world killers.

Back on the topic of Shadow of Revan, I thought it was an enjoyable story. Yes, I think that way too much of the entire storyline focuses on the Emperor / Vitiate / Valkorion. It did have its good moments and at least it had a satisfying ending (mostly because it's final).
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
12.07.2017 , 03:23 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Eshvara View Post
Yeah you're right.
Actually, if we go by history, Its you and the same handful of people who troll these threads to derail them. Same small group, every time.

I'll frankly just put you on ignore; you small few argue in bad faith.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
12.07.2017 , 03:27 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
There are times you slick your hair back / laugh at yourself and just wait for the dreaded call you know is inevitably coming, and you kick yourself for making it so, so easy.

"Dasty, please report to the burn unit."

/well-played and salute

Dasty

P.S. Zion, back on topic. The only issue I have with your posts, which have made me think -- is that they are too amorphous -- calling upon Keith to hold the writers to a higher standard is so vague a request as to be virtually impossible to operationalize. And, per your last post, it has already devolved into people calling for not just individuals, but ENTIRE teams to be fired. Like Esh, when suggestions are so open-ended, and then become personal, we have the privilege (within the ToS) to express our views on the value of your post. But, yes, you have made me think more about the role of Valkorian, etc. But as I said the last time, retconning is a waste. They already said they are moving on -- I personally think it's better to see what they come up with. Charles flat out said it was supposed to be to another 9 chapters or so that they abandoned. And, more importantly, that they are going back to Sith v. Rep. Hugs, Dasty
Fair enough. I do think they can do better with regards to consistency going forward. If they do as you say, and maintain better continuity to the vanilla game, I'd be happy with that.

JennyFlynn's Avatar


JennyFlynn
12.07.2017 , 03:34 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
You are describing your issue, not mine.

If I am your issue, then don't reply to my posts.

I know I've made this thread before, but it really hit home when I finished Shadow of Revan. It's called human nature. There are times when you think you are over something only to have a reminder down the line that you really aren't over it.

Past that, it is not improper for a paying customer to do ask that the quality of the product they are paying for be improved upon. Nor is it improper for a customer who has been paying for a product and sees a decline in the products quality 2 say they are dissatisfied with it and wish the quality to be bolstered again.

People like you who rail against anyone who dares complain do indeed get my dander up. Video games, despite being entertainment, are also a business and business model. The point of a business is to make money. The better businesses make money by keeping their customers happy. If customers are unhappy, good businesses use that feedback to improve their business. This is not rocket science nor is it the land of hugs and touchy-feely and puppies and unicorns. This is the business World reality.

Therefore is a consumer of this product, I have a right to express what I want to express in this forum that the company itself has given me to express said opinions. If that bothers you then perhaps you aren't cut out for this sort of thing.

Bottom line. If my posts bother you so much then do not read them. When you see my name ignore the post. Or put me on your ignore list. Simple problem solved. If you do not wish to do those things than you are passively admitting that you really only want to start a fight and perhaps derail threads. It is a passive admittance to the desire to troll.

Of course, if you can learn to Simply disagree without demanding such threads not be started in the first place; then at least that's a healthy discourse which I don't mind one bit. But please, get over yourself. No one on this forum or in any form Ever decided to stop making posts just because someone else said to. Get realistic.
Hey, I get "I just replayed ... and was reminded of my frustrations concerning ..." and creating a new thread to discuss the matter once more, that part is human and somewhat understandable. Yes, as a paying customer you have the right to express your opinion and frustrations, to provide feedback. I'm just of the opinion your approach is lacking. The tone of your thread title alone is closer to calling Charles out and somewhat attacking him than it is to offering valuable feedback. It seems hostile before even reading the content of your OP and I don't think that's conducive to having your feedback heard.

Now on the subject matter itself, I mostly agree. I cannot mesh "I just ate all of Ziost mhuahaha" with "I'm Valkorion the peaceful grandpa ruling Zakuul", and the two would have had to co-exist, he was Valkorion ruling a peaceful Zakuul while he was Vitiate resurfacing on Yavin and decimating Ziost. I'd like answers to that and hopefully we'll get those still. Yes I'm even of the opinion the writing quality isn't that stellar, especially not bridging Ziost > KOTFE. I don't feel they thought it through all the way or foresaw the plotholes. Maybe this will be a lesson learned for the team going forward.
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
12.07.2017 , 04:17 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by JennyFlynn View Post
Hey, I get "I just replayed ... and was reminded of my frustrations concerning ..." and creating a new thread to discuss the matter once more, that part is human and somewhat understandable. Yes, as a paying customer you have the right to express your opinion and frustrations, to provide feedback. I'm just of the opinion your approach is lacking. The tone of your thread title alone is closer to calling Charles out and somewhat attacking him than it is to offering valuable feedback. It seems hostile before even reading the content of your OP and I don't think that's conducive to having your feedback heard.

Now on the subject matter itself, I mostly agree. I cannot mesh "I just ate all of Ziost mhuahaha" with "I'm Valkorion the peaceful grandpa ruling Zakuul", and the two would have had to co-exist, he was Valkorion ruling a peaceful Zakuul while he was Vitiate resurfacing on Yavin and decimating Ziost. I'd like answers to that and hopefully we'll get those still. Yes I'm even of the opinion the writing quality isn't that stellar, especially not bridging Ziost > KOTFE. I don't feel they thought it through all the way or foresaw the plotholes. Maybe this will be a lesson learned for the team going forward.
I can understand if you find my post a little aggressive but you need to also understand the context. I didn't just randomly picked Charles out of a hat.

Back when Keith and Charles did venture out to talk to us more, Charles put something out there that was a complete and total retcon of how he envisioned vanilla meshing with KotFE.

How he went about it was very patronizing to the players who enjoyed the story offered in vanilla and were critical of the changes. He double down on some of the most criticized elements and was extremely defensive some of the poorer story aspects. It was almost a backhanded way of saying " our story was fine; the problem was the players".

We just saw how that attitude went to over with regards to the EA loot boxes in Battlefront 2 when another developer expressed a similar attitude towards the players.

So if the post it seems a little aggressive, it is. Unapologetically so. And now you know why.

MWidowmaker's Avatar


MWidowmaker
12.07.2017 , 05:16 PM | #66
the whole Zakuul thing, i think they wrote themselves into a hole and are now trying to get out of it. there was only so far you could go once you ousted the big bads and became "ruler"

having a smaller scale story like the class stories would have been a better direction i think. not everything has to be galaxy destroying total war all the time for the sake of killing.
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
12.07.2017 , 09:04 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by MWidowmaker View Post
the whole Zakuul thing, i think they wrote themselves into a hole and are now trying to get out of it. there was only so far you could go once you ousted the big bads and became "ruler"

having a smaller scale story like the class stories would have been a better direction i think. not everything has to be galaxy destroying total war all the time for the sake of killing.
Agreed.

I won't lie - here's where I'd like to see the story go:

With Iokath, you chose to ally with the Empire or Republic.

Have the current plotline end with the end of the "alliance" - giving your character nothing to command over.
At the same time, how about something unique? What about a period of relative peace between the Sith Empire and the Republic? Vowrown was always pragmatic and less power hungry than the other Sith, and a survivor. It would free up your character to stop focus on Doomsday type things, and get back to intense character development of YOUR character.

From there, grow back out the Sith-Republic conflict, but play with it - what if Vowrown wasn't provoking the Republic, but instead was building a sane Sith Empire that does follow regiment and order, but does away with the Sith Nihilism? And what if the Republic, which always felt Sith power plays would leave them an opening to keep the Sith down, are now alarmed by a more "sane" Sith Empire, and now are the aggressors, trying to provoke a war and inflame old tensions?

Basically, you would have the Republic track, the Sith track, and at key points you could go back and forth, although perhaps dialogue would change depending on your history.

Past that, open up all companions for everyone, and develop further companion stories including more romance options.

So basically, if done smart, 2 tracks and companion stories, with story-timed levers where your character could switch tracks.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
12.08.2017 , 01:45 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Gray areas..... Gray Jedi.... Kreia. KOTOR2
You insult Kreia by saying she was a Gray Jedi. Gray Jedi were only capable of exiling themselves after they learned the truth the Jedi teachings weren't all the truth and that the Dark Side isn't the answer either. They go to the furthest reaches of the galaxy like Jolee Bindo or Luke Skywalker and claim they will never be present on any galactic stage again and wallow in self-pity. They become apathetic to the galaxy and everything that happens in it. And we know what Kreia says of apathy... apathy is death.

No, Kreia went for the root of the problem in Star Wars: the Force. She was no Jedi, no Sith, no pathetic Gray Jedi. Because to believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it. It's why she said to us when asked whether she was Jedi or Sith she answers "perhaps I am neither and I hold both for what they are; pieces of a whole". But to say she is a Gray Jedi? No. Kreia wanted to destroy the Force to solve the problem in the Star Wars universe and that is that the Force pushes you to take a side (in the Legends version of the Force). Even when you are a "Gray Jedi" you still incline either towards the Light or the Dark. Prior to Disney acquiring Star Wars a person truly in the middle of the Force was impossible. No matter how much one claimed to be in the middle they still leaned one way or the other but that is because the Force simply doesn't allow for a true middle to exist. It was one of the reasons why Kreia sought to destroy the Force to create a synthesis, a situation that surpassed the state of the galaxy with the Dark and Light duality. It is also why calling Kreia a Gray Jedi is an insult because it contradicts her philosophy and intended goals.
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Eshvara's Avatar


Eshvara
12.08.2017 , 01:53 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Actually, if we go by history, Its you and the same handful of people who troll these threads to derail them. Same small group, every time.

I'll frankly just put you on ignore; you small few argue in bad faith.
Oh no, please don't.
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Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
12.08.2017 , 03:23 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Eshvara View Post
Why make the same thread twice though, are you planning to do it annually?
If you didn't like what he had to say fine, but people were just outright being dick s. No wonder he doesn't post anymore, why would anyone want to deal with people with such poor behaviour.
I'd rather he make a new thread annually than bringing back old threads with comments that are no longer up-to-date. Things do change and when a thread is over say 6 months old, I'd rather have a new one.

For me this topic is also relevant until the next expansion comes out. The thing is, Bioware often says they've listened to the players and therefore made changes. Now, don't get me wrong, I do actually believe they read what we write here and on twitter, facebook, etc....but I don't always see this translate into something that answers that.

The problem is that people rarely say what they feel, especially at first. Sure, people get angry but actually that usually means they are sad or hurt about something. When someone says that feature X is bull crap, that's feedback. But when you communicate with people in more depth you can find out WHY they say that and WHAT they want instead.

When communication is one-sided we also never really get the idea if BW gets what we ask or talk about. And then when you see how things get implemented, that reinforces the idea that they don't get it.

Take the legacy bank for example. Now I find it useful for what it is, but it isn't what I asked for. My theory is that they cannot make it work technically to make it what I want it to be. Or perhaps it is technically possible but has so many downsides from a programming point of view and possible issues it could cause that it's not worth taking that risk.

If they had communicated something of the sort, then that would be great. It's easier to be happy with what you have when you know you didn't get shafted but because it's the best they can do. They should never assume people know this. Especially when they say that for example a server name cannot be changed (Hot Prospect) and the next thing they change it. So they do need to say things out loud in a way that you would communicate to an adult and not be patronizing, thinking we wouldn't understand it. Some won't, but many will.

When it comes to story BW thought that people were asking for it. Well, to be honest, there was a lot of request for more story...but we wanted class stories, Star Wars stories, replayable stories and continuations of our relationships with our companions.

We got no class stories
We got stories that many do not feel are Star Warsy
They are replayable
And they took our companions away and started writing them out of the loop with their return stories

Now, clearly they heard people wanted story, but they completely missed the mark on how to implement that. The only thing they really answered was replayability but of course people did want the old stories to be replayable and when the new stories are not up to par for people replayability is kinda pointless.

I really wish that they stop trying to make everything "epic". It's like listening to music at maximum volume all day long. There is a point where the epicness or loudness is just too much and they are constantly hitting that. The epicness has lost impact because there is too much of it.

The old style of explorable planets with key parts instanced was good because being on an explorable planet gives it all some normality and having story bosses that were actually hard to beat at first made them stand out. I get that it was too hard for some but that's why I argued for difficulty modes for the instanced story bosses, but I digress...

A good story makes you curious and want to find out what's going on. Mystery if you will. But when the mystery is held back by artificial walls and the story driven by contrived cliff-hangers that don't deliver (KotFE was entirely geared towards the final encounter with Arcann and we don't get to kill him because his mom took him away).

When I played through KotFE I wasn't excited about the mystery but frustrated that I kept hitting invisible walls to keep me from finding out because I wasn't supposed to find out yet. I would fall into traps I knew were traps because they were so obvious and the choice between accepting Valkorions power or not was completely meaningless in the end.

The game already has had a lot of inconsistencies, that is not new, but they really blew it out of the water with KotFE and KotET sort of fixed it a bit but ended in a very unsatisfactory way. SWTOR has a tendency to present almost undefeatable foes and letting them be defeated by you even when you shouldn't be able to. Already the IA that beats a Dark Council member in combat was hard to skip over but how easily Vaylin was defeated in the end was just an insult to the power she was supposed to have.

They advertised choice matters but people didn't feel it. When defeating Arcann at the end of KotFE for example we do not get the choice to finish him off, no matter what we choose. When they escape you get a chance to fire at their ship, but you don't get to shoot them down either way. And it goes on.

In short it didn't answer what people asked for in my view.
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