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Groups Entering GSF Since Merger

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Groups Entering GSF Since Merger

Magira's Avatar


Magira
11.19.2017 , 07:19 PM | #11
There are several solutions to the problem.

The easiest way is to solve the problem by matchmaking. The matchmaker always faces a premade with another. That worked quite well in GW2, but there are certainly 50x more people playing PVP there than here playing GSF. Here in SWTOR I doubt that the problem can be solved by matchmaking without long waiting times.

Prohibition of Premades: In GW2 it is now so in the Rated, Arenanet has let vote among all PVP players, 80% were for the ban. (btw: I voted against) Then you need a gamemode for the group players. They also want to play and have the right to do so. Here are not enough players for a separate group mode.

A handicap system. Similar to golf, pre-mades or single players with very good scores get a handicap. This is the only thing that could work without long waiting times and everyone can continue to play as they want.
The Red Eclipse: Ynaxi, Thamari, Shakrj , Lorilee, Maedu
Guild: The Wookiees Legacy:Shockwaverider
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shockwave_Rider

Verain's Avatar


Verain
11.19.2017 , 09:08 PM | #12
All of those ideas are really bad, and even if they weren't, none apply to GSF without absolutely wrecking it.

This thread makes it sound like team queue is (a) new and (b) undesirable. In fact, it's been around since the game launched, and is clearly incentivized by everything from the group queue button itself, to the team size, to the game goals, to the complementary ships. Pretending that this is something new from the mergers is really odd, but I guess if you were on a totally dead server previously with pops as rare as they were then, that drove all the good teams to bigger servers long ago, you'd be surprised about it.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Alzim's Avatar


Alzim
11.20.2017 , 05:26 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Magira View Post
The easiest way is to solve the problem by matchmaking. The matchmaker always faces a premade with another. That worked quite well in GW2, but there are certainly 50x more people playing PVP there than here playing GSF. Here in SWTOR I doubt that the problem can be solved by matchmaking without long waiting times.
I'd like this one (or/and the "Odessen mixed teams"-one), but as you pointed out, there would be the need for a timer who'll let the premade play against random players if during a certain time period no opposing premade queued. And maybe some "good premades" would then rather choose the way of "sync-queueing" to kill random ppl instead of facing some real opposition from another premade.

The easiest way to have some sort of team balancing imho remains "self regulation" by dominating pilots and I've seen some of them actually do that - kudos to them (others not so much, but hey, it's not against the rules, so ... although they might put some thought into long-term implications of their behavior for the "health of the game" concerning GSF ...).

Magira's Avatar


Magira
11.20.2017 , 10:04 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
All of those ideas are really bad, and even if they weren't, none apply to GSF without absolutely wrecking it.
Dear Verain,

this is a game, not a competitive sport. This is about everyone having as much fun as possible and not about some people being able to satisfy their EGO.
If a few people rob the majority of the fun, it must be limited.

With anti elitist greetings your Magira. ^^
The Red Eclipse: Ynaxi, Thamari, Shakrj , Lorilee, Maedu
Guild: The Wookiees Legacy:Shockwaverider
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shockwave_Rider

caederon's Avatar


caederon
11.20.2017 , 11:28 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Magira View Post
this is a game, not a competitive sport. This is about everyone having as much fun as possible and not about some people being able to satisfy their EGO.
The funny thing is, GSF is structured just like an e-sport, except for the lack of a ranked ladder/league.

Detailed personal stats are kept and are available to every player to examine in self-reflection on what they are capable of and where they can improve.

A scoreboard is presented after every match showing a lengthy list of performance metrics that are sortable and even deeper information is available on the Performance Tab of the interface.

Four-pilot squads are supported, and there are many positives for running them and component interactions that benefit from them.

Players benefit greatly from practice and teamwork, even just in the sense of 'I know where to be and how to get there.' There are few limits to the skill someone can develop through perseverance and drive.

These are not the markings of a non-sport casual game. The only reason GSF doesn't have ranked play is that the devs got shut off from properly continuing the game's development when it was at its peak (2014) and it likely will never recover from that. We have a GSF right now that is far more mechanically balanced than ever and yet some of the worst quality of matches ever because the majority of the playerbase is terrible at the game through either willful ignorance, indifference, or lack of experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by Alzim View Post
they might put some thought into long-term implications of their behavior for the "health of the game" concerning GSF ...).
The 'health of the game' is entirely dependent on ongoing developer support. GSF survived being proclaimed dead for two years plus, go ahead and search it on the forum. GSF has more people calling time-of-death than a primetime medical drama. The undead zombie GSF shambles on and on and on.

You know how to stop veteran premades from laying waste to your teams? Learn to play the game. Encourage others to learn to play the game. There aren't so many veteran premades around that one cannot learn and practice GSF. It is likely there are two or fewer veteran premades across all five servers playing GSF at any given time.

And what about the new / inexperienced people who are on the same side as the veteran premades? Why do they continue to have a line that looks like 0k 2a 5d 2000dam? They have an open playground to go to satellites, take potshots at people, and otherwise benefit from the premade running roughshod over the opposition.

Here is the message people need to embrace in order for there to be fewer garbage games of GSF:

You can succeed if you learn and practice.

If you do those two things, you will first become competent, then you will push past that and find an area where you can maximize your personal skills to the best. Unbalanced matches vs. strong teams are very frustrating, but they are not every match on every server. Your personal performance can and will improve if you keep playing, seek out learning resources, and remain dedicated... and if enough people adopt that attitude, balance will rise because there will be a greater pool of competent players to draw from, just like there was in the past.

- Despon

HeatRacer's Avatar


HeatRacer
11.20.2017 , 02:06 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
And what about the new / inexperienced people who are on the same side as the veteran premades? Why do they continue to have a line that looks like 0k 2a 5d 2000dam? They have an open playground to go to satellites, take potshots at people, and otherwise benefit from the premade running roughshod over the opposition.
You're kind of answering your own question here. In these steamroll matches, the vets usually swarm and farm the enemy team so quickly that friendly newbies barely have time to arrive and line up a shot. I have been both guilty of that, while also having been the person that is running around trying to find something to shoot because the opposing team is getting farmed so quickly by my teammates.
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caederon's Avatar


caederon
11.20.2017 , 03:27 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by HeatRacer View Post
In these steamroll matches, the vets usually swarm and farm the enemy team so quickly that friendly newbies barely have time to arrive and line up a shot.
I think there is an important distinction to be made between the various breeds of pilots who get poor results.
_
  • Noobs
    Actual for-real new pilots who have a desire and intent to learn how to play. They often perform poorly because they are still learning, which is entirely acceptable. If they are making a legit effort to perform to the best of their ability and learn what is preventing them from doing so, I will never have a problem with that.
    _
  • Indifferents
    Ticks, AFK'ers, CXP farmers, Conquistadors, passengers, those who have no intent to actually participate in a meaningful way because they are getting what they want out of the match regardless of their performance. It is a means to an end for them, not a thing they do because they enjoy it.
    _
  • Trolls
    Self-destructors, Ops-chat ranters, people who want you to suffer because you chose to play the game regardless of whether you are on their team or not (or sometimes, because you are on their team).
_
I really do not believe that the legions of people who fill up the bottom of scoreboards with sub-10k damage totals and single digit shooting percentages are true new pilots who want to learn how to play. It is so easy to get past that stage of development with just a little effort. Practically every match, scoreboards are 60% full of people who can't shoot and don't know where to go. This is basic, basic game stuff.

It is my opinion that the vast majority of the problem is coming from people who are indifferent to their success or failure in the game, and have no reason to behave otherwise because they are rewarded in the parts of the game they care about either way.

- Despon

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.20.2017 , 04:17 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
I think there is an important distinction to be made between the various breeds of pilots who get poor results.
_
  • Noobs
    Actual for-real new pilots who have a desire and intent to learn how to play. They often perform poorly because they are still learning, which is entirely acceptable. If they are making a legit effort to perform to the best of their ability and learn what is preventing them from doing so, I will never have a problem with that.
    _
  • Indifferents
    Ticks, AFK'ers, CXP farmers, Conquistadors, passengers, those who have no intent to actually participate in a meaningful way because they are getting what they want out of the match regardless of their performance. It is a means to an end for them, not a thing they do because they enjoy it.
    _
  • Trolls
    Self-destructors, Ops-chat ranters, people who want you to suffer because you chose to play the game regardless of whether you are on their team or not (or sometimes, because you are on their team).
_
I really do not believe that the legions of people who fill up the bottom of scoreboards with sub-10k damage totals and single digit shooting percentages are true new pilots who want to learn how to play. It is so easy to get past that stage of development with just a little effort. Practically every match, scoreboards are 60% full of people who can't shoot and don't know where to go. This is basic, basic game stuff.

It is my opinion that the vast majority of the problem is coming from people who are indifferent to their success or failure in the game, and have no reason to behave otherwise because they are rewarded in the parts of the game they care about either way.

- Despon
If you spend enough games getting facerolled on your spawn, it's really, really easy to think you'll never git gud, or at the very least, that there's no point to spawning or trying to engage the enemy.

That's just the pattern that emerges in all PvP games after a while. We don't keep real newbies because they do care about getting good and the game environment of real players is the one you always get from a game really late in its PvP game lifetime. The CXP farmers are here until something else gives more CXP or UCs, and the trolls are just trolls.
There is no reason you should have to ask anybody else's
computer if it's OK to play alone, or the person sitting next
to you. That other computer won't always be there.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
11.20.2017 , 04:32 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
If you spend enough games getting facerolled on your spawn, it's really, really easy to think you'll never git gud, or at the very least, that there's no point to spawning or trying to engage the enemy.
And yet that is not what I see in a very large number of matches I have played across four of the five servers recently.

Many, many matches I have been in are slow-paced affairs where people fly around, often seemingly at random, making bad choices and executing those choices poorly. There are ample matches that are not against premades where people play the game in slow-motion and exhibit no tactical awareness. These people have not been demoralized by premades, you can count the number of premades flying these days on one hand. They just have little to no idea what they are doing, and/or don't care.

I've been in 1000-1 dom matches where there was no premade. All you need is a few competent people on one side and that's all it takes. No VOIP is needed. No coordination is really needed. If your side has a couple people who know what they are doing and can hit a target or lock a missile, it is often an insurmountable obstacle for the average team of random players.

GSF needs more people with basic competence to stop these garbage matches from being the norm.

- Despon

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.20.2017 , 06:39 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
And yet that is not what I see in a very large number of matches I have played across four of the five servers recently.

Many, many matches I have been in are slow-paced affairs where people fly around, often seemingly at random, making bad choices and executing those choices poorly. There are ample matches that are not against premades where people play the game in slow-motion and exhibit no tactical awareness. These people have not been demoralized by premades, you can count the number of premades flying these days on one hand. They just have little to no idea what they are doing, and/or don't care.

I've been in 1000-1 dom matches where there was no premade. All you need is a few competent people on one side and that's all it takes. No VOIP is needed. No coordination is really needed. If your side has a couple people who know what they are doing and can hit a target or lock a missile, it is often an insurmountable obstacle for the average team of random players.

GSF needs more people with basic competence to stop these garbage matches from being the norm.

- Despon
The pattern I've noticed on Satele is something like this:

Imp conquest/CXP farmers flying around not even trying. Pubs farm them. Careless pubs who didn't think protorps worked both ways. Of those imps, the top 4 were a group which cared. One was a bomber, one was a conc/protorp/quad Quell, and I'm not sure what the other two were doing. The only reason the pubs flew so they could be shot down so easily is because they were used to mostly target drones, and apparently weren't used to dealing with seriously threatening incoming fire (one of the Clarions on the actually flew with interdiction drive out in the open and was in the top 4. If that's the pattern, they aren't up against newbies trying to get better, because, after a while, newbies trying to get better would pose a threat. Or maybe most of the newbies trying to get better just fly pub to avoid being getting chased around by half the pub team all match because everything else just dies.

And again (except that was a pub wargame and those aren't protorps).

Then Drak's group gets on, people say so in GSF chat, and usually the people who aren't just CXP farmers quit queueing. Except, once we got a group together and scraped a 1000/950 dom win, but it went immediately one-sided against us and there wasn't any contest any more. Trying to pull half a team of dead weight against them didn't seem like very much fun, so we just went off to play not-GSF (or bed because it was late).
There is no reason you should have to ask anybody else's
computer if it's OK to play alone, or the person sitting next
to you. That other computer won't always be there.