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I think there's a bit too much CC.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
I think there's a bit too much CC.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
11.14.2017 , 04:01 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Nasja View Post
I have been hit in a lot of matches by ion spam while sitting behind a sat and the gs pilot spamming on a defense turret.
Which costs you a small amount of engine energy. That's a control, but it definitely doesn't compare to the massive drain a full charge does, nor the serious control debuff applied from T5. It is DEFINITELY not comparable to taking all the EMP debuffs on your ship.

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I never said "things are fine", what worries me most however is when things are being nerfed so soon while we just got a new update after several years of getting nothing.
Eh, I share that concern too. I wouldn't argue for nerfs that I thought would delete these components.

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About "my play can be impacted by an allied player nearby who doesn't know how to avoid a missile", I assume you mean the aoe effect will then hit me like it does to the pilots who didn't know how to avoid a missile.
Yes, exactly. It's frustrating that the presence of an incompetent ally can be worse than if that ally were dead and waiting for respawn. I don't think that can never be the case or anything, I just think it is too much right now.

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Well, the fun thing is... if the same pilot doesn't know how emp field works and surprisingly he hits it while I am in the area... then my play is impacted in a positive way
He's less likely to buff you if he doesn't know it buffs you though.

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Other then that, the defense turret doesn't avoid a missile anyways, nor does the bomber deployed drone
True, but you can at least observe those and know that they will serve as EMP bait. You are at least taking that risk.



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If you crush gsf for these people by not holding back a bit and make your goal to win 50-0 or 1000-0, guess what happens? Yep, they don't queue again and the waiting time will be long.
I mean, I'm not going to trick them into queuing by pretending that they have a shot when they don't. I'm just going to shoot them with as many blasters as I can and stuff.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.14.2017 , 04:38 AM | #12
Yep, wrong thread for this. Does have a lot to do with perceived balance of EMP missile splash, will go off on tangent.

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
11.14.2017 , 06:37 AM | #13
The whole Carebears vs. Griefers debate does not belong here.

I feel EMP offers too much control for too little effort. Ions, when they were the go-to control weapon, needed aim and only significantly controlled their primary target. Getting AoE ioned on a node was never a huge threat, the issue was always the follow-up -- scouts with BLC chewing your bombers up because they were devoid of mines. With EMP, that's still a risk, but there's more; EMP also deals significant damage which is unavoidable, delivers AoE controls (also unavoidable), and is spammable. Less spammable than ions are even now, but even more hard to avoid considering all the effects are AoE and have no maximum target cap.

I would like to see the T5 upgrade removed from the AoE completely. This makes sense to me for two reasons:
  1. it behaves like ion railgun in that only your primary target is significantly controlled, and thus has a counter (missile breaks).
  2. it forces you to lock onto a significant target in order to control them, instead of a drone or turret as is currently the norm.

The second reason is the main one for me. If EMP missiles didn't offer such powerful AoE controls, they would still fulfill their primary role -- clearing bombers and preventing bomberspam. They wouldn't trivialize shutting down players who are just PTFO, and that's my main issue with them. We know EMP AoE damage is borked, but if that's getting fixed next patch, then changing the T5 control to single-target would probably make me ok with them.

EMP field and Remote Slicing are different animals. I am not at all convinced that Remote slicing is actually a viable move for serious matches, and we're not asking for balance around farms or stacked ones (I hope). I would like to see RS as a useful ability for all matches, so here's my fix: remove the drain completely, give it 7.5km range, and make it very clear that you have been sliced. Possibly by adding a noise that you hear for as long as you're sliced. Perhaps also make the ability delayed by a second or something similar, although I'm not sure that's neccesary. To my mind this would make the T3 strike a ship I'd use offensively too, but it would give other players a chance at escaping (because they'd still have engines to boost away with). Also, reduce the control duration to 6 seconds base (9 mastered). It still hurts, and you can possibly increase the shield drain to compensate (if anyone even cares about that aspect of the move, which I doubt anyone does).

EMP field could go many ways, but my thoughts on it: reduce the base debuff time to 7 seconds (10 mastered), change the missile break so it only breaks missiles (no immunity, like EtS and EtW converters do). Also, reduce the damage to 1 vs. enemy players. The damage is there for assists, fine. I don't get why a ship deserves high evasion (EMP evasion buff + accuracy debuff + standard evasion stuff), the most missile immunity (DF + engines + EMP field) and a ton of team utility. This ability has too much packed into one, both offensively and defensively.

My long 2.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
11.18.2017 , 07:12 PM | #14
The EMP components are designed to mess up bomber stacks. Specifically to temporarily turn off the area denial effects of bomber deployables and interfere with the tankiness of bombers when the bomber has defensive CDs available.

The problem with the EMP components are:

The utility effects are strong enough for them to stand as pure utility components, but they now have a generous helping of DPS against player targets (some of which is a bug, but even with the bug fixed could be dialed down even more.)

The three sorts of disables are of vastly different power in the current meta against the generic GSF ship. System disables are fairly weak. The ship can still do it's job, just not as quickly and efficiently as normal. Shields disables are modestly dangerous, but really only highly potent against CP builds and Directional builds with their shields in the wrong direction. Engine disables aren't a certain death sentence, but they come close and are always a disaster. This makes balancing the three of them really troublesome when linked together.



It's partly a product of the other meta changes. When all non-cluster missiles sucked horribly, they didn't really get that much better with an engine disable, but now with really good missiles an engine disable is quite potent. At the same time shield disables were greatly weakened when CP minelayer stacking was weakened. The mine/drone clearing on the EMPs is now quite good, and AP has been spread so widely that things that were valued for getting around CP, such as shield disables or the Thermite debuff, are no longer worth very much.

EMP Field and EMP Missile got all the buffs they needed to work in the pre-5.5 meta, but the 5.5 meta has changed enough other things so that not all of the power of the new EMPs is needed in the current meta.


I'd go at adjustments by:
  • Harshly nerfing damage done to players by EMP components to less than 100 damage per use. That would be the maximum, really anywhere between 1 and 100 would be fine.
  • Looking at buffs to Charged Plating. The shield disables should be generally favored by the EMP components if they're targeted at bombers. If nothing else works, I'd even look at making the T5 options for them a choice between system disable and shield disable (even though that's not much of a choice) and just dropping the engine disable from those components.
  • Another alternative of similar scale would be to make the engine or shield disable target only the current target, though that significantly weakens the EMP components if stacked CP bombers ever make a comeback (stacked bombers being why all the effects were AOE in the first place).

Currently the EMPs are specialist utility components that aren't giving up much generic dogfighting power for that utility. The utility is good and needed, so nerfs should be aimed at weakening the dogfighting strength while doing as little damage as possible to the anti-stacking utility.


Remote slicing I think is basically ok as is. It could perhaps even use some buffs, given that its tier 2 and tier 4 upgrade options are all pretty much worthless, and the tier 1 and 3 upgrades just alter the CD and duration of the tier 5 disables. The component as a whole looks like a control/utility component should look. It gives up basically all generic offensive and defensive power in exchange for a very narrow and specific utility, and that utility is quite strong in its specialty. Bordering on too specific perhaps. If the tier 2 and 4 upgrades did something useful that might be a good trade for making the CD on RS a bit longer. RS also very much depends on torpedoes being easy to land. Even very mild nerfs to torp user friendliness would sink RS as a component.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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LordFell's Avatar


LordFell
11.18.2017 , 08:04 PM | #15
Everyone knows that when game developers buff something they drastically overdo it... and after a while, once the metrics are in, they nerf things up a bit. Hopefully where things like Strike Fighters and EMPs land is still a good place.

I'm probably not experienced enough a flyer to get too indepth in my opinions, but when I realized I was going to be flying again (Begeron Colony; Dogfighter's Graveyard) I dusted off my ships and looked at my components. When I saw all the stuff EMP did for me, I was a firm believer. It's real, real, good now.
...I mean, mostly I just use it when I blow through a Satellite and want to clear the mines. But, it's also a missile break, and who doesn't love those?

In terms of damage, I think I'd like to see about 100 damage, and anything that gets through shields is halved against the hull.

FlavivsAetivs's Avatar


FlavivsAetivs
11.24.2017 , 11:59 AM | #16
Here's my thoughts:

1. I think the AOE field on EMP Missile and EMP field is needed, and I think its effects are needed. Prior to the update they were rather useless except on one-trick pony builds. The problem is frequency of use. It needs a longer cooldown, IMO, which will also make it easier to dodge with engine abilities.

It may also be possible to change the number of ships it effects, but keep the AOE.

2. Remote Slicing: I really see no problem with this. The only ship that can use it is the Clarion/Imperium, which isn't meta except in Domination. I don't see it being used at all, except by Traesha. It's really not that effective because if you use it then combining it with the missile option where its range is actually effective (EMP Missile) isn't exactly advangageous. Thermite and Proton you're using usually at a 10km range making remote slicing ineffective except in a joust or a pursuit where you have a major acceleration advantage. That requires skill to time and hold a proton lock, use remote slicing, and then release.
A.K.A. Magister Militum Flavius Aetius
Eudoxia Eudoxya
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ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.24.2017 , 05:57 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by FlavivsAetivs View Post
Here's my thoughts:

1. I think the AOE field on EMP Missile and EMP field is needed, and I think its effects are needed. Prior to the update they were rather useless except on one-trick pony builds. The problem is frequency of use. It needs a longer cooldown, IMO, which will also make it easier to dodge with engine abilities.

It may also be possible to change the number of ships it effects, but keep the AOE.

2. Remote Slicing: I really see no problem with this. The only ship that can use it is the Clarion/Imperium, which isn't meta except in Domination. I don't see it being used at all, except by Traesha. It's really not that effective because if you use it then combining it with the missile option where its range is actually effective (EMP Missile) isn't exactly advangageous. Thermite and Proton you're using usually at a 10km range making remote slicing ineffective except in a joust or a pursuit where you have a major acceleration advantage. That requires skill to time and hold a proton lock, use remote slicing, and then release.
I've played around with the build a couple of times.

Yes, it requires a bit of skill to lock -> slice. If your target is in the open and missing some engine power, you can slice it and have all day to lock because it can't:
Boost (slicing made most of it disappear)
Use its engine ability (locked out)
Booster recharge -> boost out of it (locked out)
EMP field to break the lock (locked out)

About the only options left are:
Kill the strike before it can fire (requires team support usually, meaning srs match)
DF out of it (buys about a second to get away)
S2E (because slicing can only affect engines or shields) and hope you've got enough power to get out of the strike's missile lock cone and into cover
Tank the hit (reinforced armor strike or bomber and usually hydro spanner/friend with repair probes or drone)

FlavivsAetivs's Avatar


FlavivsAetivs
11.25.2017 , 10:16 AM | #18
Which reminds me I ought to switch my Clarion to Hydrospanner.

But yeah something needs to be done about EMP missile field, because getting hit by five of them in a meta domination match is really not great.
A.K.A. Magister Militum Flavius Aetius
Eudoxia Eudoxya
Umbra
Jedi Covenant