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Balance? Not!


Verain's Avatar


Verain
10.31.2017 , 07:29 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
TYou wouldn't want gunships to be able to just plink away from outside of cap ship turret range.
Yes you absolutely would. Railgun dps is low, and a gunship out there doing that would be presenting himself pretty well. You'd tune the whole thing around that event. In a world where you go into capship range and die in seconds, while the turrets don't have much health, this is a problem. But standing outside an area sniping is a great way to get in trouble, especially if flying through the capship fire is an intended mechanic for a ship, and not a one-way ticket to becoming dust.

Quote:
You'd probably also have to give them EMP and Ion AOE immunity, or at least resistance to the disables.
Again, you wouldn't do this either- you'd just make them spread out enough and have a bit of armor, armor that a couple EMPs or ion hits wouldn't be an instant win.

Quote:
You could even stack different types getting creative. 16 km railgun drone clones, 8 km range missile drone clones, and 5 km interdiction clone drones. Maybe all with the health of bombers?
Hrm, I see your direction here. I was thinking things with like 20k hit points or whatever, you're thinking like a 10th of that.
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Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
10.31.2017 , 09:01 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Hrm, I see your direction here. I was thinking things with like 20k hit points or whatever, you're thinking like a 10th of that.
Specifically I was thinking 4 Dronecarriers with railgun drones as a baseline, uptuned a bit to account for GSF aces being ravening monsters and the fact that turret AI is going to be pretty weak in the evil and devious departments compared to a skilled human pilot. A first pass design would be 3 rail turrets, 2 missile turrets, and 1 interdiction turret per cap ship. At something like 2750 health and maybe 35% DR. Damage as per the bomber drones. Increment health and damage by say 15 - 25% per respawn. Respawn timer I think would need play testing, but call it 1 min to start with? Maybe 90 seconds?

It's reasonably probable that with the existing turret/drone targeting rules at 16 km range gunships wouldn't get shot at much because all of the turrets would be busy shooting at strikes, scouts, and given a sufficiently stompy stomp of a match, maybe even bombers. In at least in theory though, you want to discourage them from just sitting there and killing newbs just as much as you want to discourage the strikes and scouts from doing so. Depending on the time span of target acquisition and charging for the turrets, a GS might get in, shoot, and get out, without getting hit very hard by return fire even if there aren't shorter range ships to draw away fire.

TDM turrets of this nature would have to be an entirely different nature of beast compared to the current DOM turrets which seem to be fine in DOM.

Slightly tough and chewy targets that moderately discourage camping on the spawn, vs instant obliteration of trespassers.

In terms of balance I figure I'd aim for modest misery for a single solo carry pilot, or even a pair, but that a team of 4 coordinated or more might be entertained by taking on the turrets. The incrementing idea pops up because tuning the turrets to be amusing for a fairly casual group of 4 coordinated pilots and also amusing for a 12 person super serious team that caved to miserable matchmaking after the nth time of drawing a PUG opposing team, is probably too wide to be handled by a single strength of turret. Incrementing because I assume that's the maximum sophistication that would be likely, possibly borrowing stacking boss buff type mechanics from Ops designs.

I suppose you could also add AOE buff auras to turrets. Evasion, shield healing, and shield capacity might be reasonable to try. If the pilots can't perform in their ships buff the ships, but only if they stick to typical buff ranges in GSF, meaning 2500 to 5000 m. Making huddling slightly less painful is ok, but I wouldn't want even combined effects to be enough to encourage turtling

In a perfect world, in that sort of lopsided game the turrets both give the weaker team partial, but not total respite, and also make things more fun for the attacking team which is clearly not being challenged enough.
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RickDagles's Avatar


RickDagles
10.31.2017 , 09:10 PM | #13
Spawn camping is an unfortunate thing. But it seems to be part of any video game when the teams aren't balanced. I don't think GSF is any different, and I wouldn't want Bioware to jeopardize the balance of the game as a whole in order to alleviate these frustrating one sided games. They would be better off putting effort into a system that makes more balanced teams, and I think the server merges are a step in the right direction.

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
11.01.2017 , 01:04 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Some additional changes I'd make are upping the range on the turrets to at least 15.5 or 16 km. You wouldn't want gunships to be able to just plink away from outside of cap ship turret range. You'd probably also have to give them EMP and Ion AOE immunity, or at least resistance to the disables.
Not that we should give the idea too much steam, but since we are in the realm of hypotheticals, let's give it a whirl. A gunship, regardless of type, gives up a lot to be in what (at least in the two TDM maps we have) is pretty much open space, with no LoS easily accessible. Besides not being near LoS, the gunship would be of course stationary (no real point in charge-strafing if there is no object to strafe behind.) So, they become easy targets for the team turtling behind these hypothetical cap ships, at least for those who chose to spawn at one of the alternate points. Therefore, there would be no benefit to having turrets as a targetable objective, to discourage, uh, whatever behavior we are trying to discourage, if the range was greater than that of railguns or post 5.5-gunship torps. So I think that if, hypothetically, cap ship turrets were to become an objective of sorts, then the range should probably be less than 13km. I mean, that may not be lore-appropriate for a turbolaser, but for the sake of gameplay, the gunship has to have some range advantage over them, since the turrets can one-shot most ships.

Regarding the immunities ... I don't know. Ignoring my above discussion, if we were to follow lore, so-called snub-fighters (x-wings, i.e. space superiority fighters) were so small that they could evade the Death Star's turbolasers. The strike is TOR analog of the X-wing and the scout class is likely smaller than the strike fighter class. So, the existing platforms for EMPf/m delivery, except the T3B, ought to be small enough to evade cap ship turrets, if they are flying evasively. Perhaps to mimic this, the hypothetical turbolaser has a tiny firing arc and/or poor accuracy. I guess if its bad enough it might even be reasonable to extend the range as you say. Thus, given its strength as a one-shot and long range, I'm not sure it should have immunity to ships that supposedly should be able to evade them.

But, this is all just hypothetical and lore/canon isn't exactly sacrosanct in GSF.
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sayNih's Avatar


sayNih
11.03.2017 , 01:26 AM | #15
Gunships ruin GSF, the same way Line and Escort ships ruined BSGO.

We want to dogfight, not suddenly explode for no apparent reason.
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
11.03.2017 , 03:47 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by sayNih View Post
Gunships ruin GSF, the same way Line and Escort ships ruined BSGO.

We want to dogfight, not suddenly explode for no apparent reason.
Gunships and bombers are far more vulnerable than they were pre 5.5. Strikes can survive against gunships and bombers much better. There is a lot more dogfighting going on. Have you been in a match since 5.5 came out?
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