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ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.11.2017 , 01:46 PM | #21
Protorps are supposed to be painful.

Remote slicing is especially punishing:
Your only way to block it is to stay out of range, pretty much meaning gunships.
Engine ability gone
Engines suddenly don't have power, so LoSing out of trouble is out
Systems ability gone. You brought booster recharge to deal with power drain? EMP field? 100% useless.
And suppression, which you might have used to deal with one angry scout, is 100% useless against missiles.

If you're the only thing in the match worth shooting at, a slicing/protorp build can make you totally useless on its own.

There are a few counters I've found:

1: Ion rail and a lot of situational awareness. The ships which can slice don't RNG out of hits particularly well. Tab like a maniac and you're hard to sneak up on. If they know what you're doing, they can use cover to get close to you, so you pretty much have to retreat, or you have to have a teammate they haven't seen yet. Also they can powerdive after you tag them, so following that up with slug isn't going to help.

2: Cover cover cover cover cover. Lots and lots of cover. If you're near cover, you have a chance to get behind it before missiles start flying. Sometimes.

3: Well-placed interdiction sentry drones, dropped before the slice.

4: Slice/EMP them first.

And, 5: build with reinforced armor/hydro spanner to tank the hit and repair afterward, because bomber spam and the repair drones that go with it are mostly out of fashion these days.

Nasja's Avatar


Nasja
11.12.2017 , 02:11 AM | #22
I think the point isn't so much about how to avoid getting protorped. I think the problem, like before... is more about teams that use specific builds and ships to build a "perfect" team and even coordinate through voicechat, the premades if you want to call it that, then anything else.
And from what I have seen during matches around this time, and drako's video is that some people just don't care about crushing the opposition and use remote slicing (which they shouldn't have used in that match), or in case of the matches I was in, where they didn't care about 3-capping and I made my disagreement by just typing: ............... (while I was on the winning team).
The result.. yep, people maybe leaving the game, or at least kill the queue.
Traesha Anasja Secforce'hawk Trashya

Jedi Covenant

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.12.2017 , 02:44 PM | #23
About the time you'd posted that, I had a game where the pub team's stats were 7/0/0/0/0/0/0 kills and zero objectives. One of them recognized the group on the enemy team and didn't spawn in at all (I think). I think two more had stopped spawning after minute two because the match was just that frustrating. I used to see this all the time when I flew groups: they'd recognize us and not bother trying to win because they knew they wouldn't: they'd just take their hands off the controls and resign themselves to the inevitable.

So... yeah, the tactic works if you've only got one guy in a Clarion trying to protorp you that way and your team can keep the rest of them busy enough to not focus you. If they're so frustrated that they quit spawning, it's not a tactics problem.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
11.12.2017 , 03:52 PM | #24
There is only one way to achieve competitive balance in GSF as it exists right now, and that is for players who do not know what they are doing to make the effort to learn and take the time to practice their skills.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nasja View Post
some people just don't care about crushing the opposition
Don't expect players who do know what they are doing to hold back or otherwise hobble themselves to accommodate players who do not know what they are doing, particularly when in many cases both sides are filled with people that are clueless or don't care.

This game is not so complex or the knowledge so hidden that people cannot succeed at it through learning. There is no significant gear grind. There are no artificial barriers to competing that cannot be overcome through knowledge and practice. Not every player will be a top 'ace,' but anyone can be competent or better and anyone can help rather than hurt their team through applying basic tactical awareness. You don't even have to have great aim anymore to do something positive offensively.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nasja View Post
The result.. yep, people maybe leaving the game, or at least kill the queue.
Until the game is structured with some sort of separation of players by ability level, the only thing that will prevent blowouts is if the people being blown out commit to improving... and in a lot of cases, giant strides can be made by someone who is putting up a line like 0 2 10, 7k damage just by practicing very basic skills.

Do not seek to lower the ceiling... look to raise up the floor.

- Despon

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.12.2017 , 04:10 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
There is only one way to achieve competitive balance in GSF as it exists right now, and that is for players who do not know what they are doing to make the effort to learn and take the time to practice their skills.


Don't expect players who do know what they are doing to hold back or otherwise hobble themselves to accommodate players who do not know what they are doing, particularly when in many cases both sides are filled with people that are clueless or don't care.

This game is not so complex or the knowledge so hidden that people cannot succeed at it through learning. There is no significant gear grind. There are no artificial barriers to competing that cannot be overcome through knowledge and practice. Not every player will be a top 'ace,' but anyone can be competent or better and anyone can help rather than hurt their team through applying basic tactical awareness. You don't even have to have great aim anymore to do something positive offensively.
The significant gear grind might have served a purpose, though. It was drawn out for so long, that, as you played, you got a tangible improvement to your ship (upgrades) as you were getting tangible improvements to your player-skill level.

Quote:
Until the game is structured with some sort of separation of players by ability level, the only thing that will prevent blowouts is if the people being blown out commit to improving... and in a lot of cases, giant strides can be made by someone who is putting up a line like 0 2 10, 7k damage just by practicing very basic skills.

Do not seek to lower the ceiling... look to raise up the floor.

- Despon
Raising up the floor has been the natural progression of PvP games for a very, very long time. If the floor is high enough to keep Drak's group from roflstomping every pug it comes across 50/5 or 1000/100, it's going to be much, much less inviting for anyone else new, because they'll have that much harder of a time getting That First Kill.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
11.12.2017 , 04:27 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
The significant gear grind might have served a purpose, though. It was drawn out for so long, that, as you played, you got a tangible improvement to your ship (upgrades) as you were getting tangible improvements to your player-skill level.
This growth period only matters when there is a large enough player pool to pit you consistently against people who have roughly the same level of gear. There isn't, now. While gear doesn't magically make someone competitive, it helps.

Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
Raising up the floor has been the natural progression of PvP games for a very, very long time. If the floor is high enough to keep Drak's group from roflstomping every pug it comes across 50/5 or 1000/100, it's going to be much, much less inviting for anyone else new, because they'll have that much harder of a time getting That First Kill.
In a game where all players are in the same pool with no dividers to keep them apart, there is no other solution.

There is no barrier to meaningful participation that can't be vaulted by even the total novice.

New pilots need the following...
  1. basic knowledge of where to be at a given time and how to use your controls to get there
  2. basic knowledge of what weapons to use against which targets
  3. the physical skills to lock a missile
  4. knowledge of which ships or other targets they ought to lock that missile onto
  5. a drive to improve and desire to play GSF that isn't based on CXP
_
That doesn't seem like too tall an order.

- Despon

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
11.12.2017 , 05:05 PM | #27
If the matchmaker weren't so opposed to making balanced matches we could balance ourselves at this point. Between Discord for communication and only a few servers it wouldn't be that hard.

Fire the matchmaking algorithm and download a copy of Ianir's brain into the datacenters. We know Ianir's matchmaking works.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
11.12.2017 , 06:08 PM | #28
Come to think of it, "stop spawning" is an interesting tactic on its own.

Mechanically, it's "I don't want to deal with the match so I won't."

From a metagame standpoint, it's quite literally weaponized boredom (a concept I first saw utilized in probably 2005 in a small EVE-like game). The only thing more boring than farming a ship whose pilot has given up and stopped bothering to fly it is to not have anything to farm at all. It is a functional strategy, and much easier to coordinate than trying to actually hold a node against a much stronger team determined to hold all three or "finish the match" and play perfectly. Whatever hasn't spawned can't be shot down, and it's a tactic literally anyone can use once they know it's available.

It would make for an incredibly boring stream. The audience came to see things explode, and nothing exploded! Am disappoint! But, that's another problem that's shown up in a lot of games in recent times: they're more fun to watch than to play, and people have learned that let's-plays and Twitch streams are both cheaper and less frustrating than actually playing.

If we want to avoid that, maybe overextending the team is the best strategy for the best players: maybe nothing encourages a newbie like "This guy was totally wrecking our team and I got him!"

Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
This growth period only matters when there is a large enough player pool to pit you consistently against people who have rouly the same level of gear. There isn't, now. While gear doesn't magically make someone competitive, it helps.


In a game where all players are in the same pool with no dividers to keep them apart, there is no other solution.

There is no barrier to meaningful participation that can't be vaulted by even the total novice.

New pilots need the following...
  1. basic knowledge of where to be at a given time and how to use your controls to get there
  2. basic knowledge of what weapons to use against which targets
  3. the physical skills to lock a missile
  4. knowledge of which ships or other targets they ought to lock that missile onto
  5. a drive to improve and desire to play GSF that isn't based on CXP
_
That doesn't seem like too tall an order.

- Despon
"A drive to improve and desire to play" should be #1 on that list. It is the one and only reason any of us bothered to git gud. It comes before everything else. It's the only reason anyone is going to bother to get the other skills. And, for some reason, the learning curve is usually stronger.

Most of the newbies who stick their toes into any of the PvP in the game come to the conclusion: "The only winning move is not to play," or "I'm so bad there's no point in trying." We can say these players wrote a self-fulfilling prophecy all you want, and we can call these players entitled children if we want (that one is very much in vogue in any EA game forum and occasionally right), but that's part of the reality we might be dealing with.

Alzim's Avatar


Alzim
11.12.2017 , 07:09 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
"This guy was totally wrecking our team and I got him!"
A powerful motivation - speaking from personal experience. (and one kill is enough to trigger that in this situation ...)

Oh, and if you're a beginner and some sort of premade or a single "ace" pilot is annoying you, because he's just too good and dominates/wins every match for the opposing faction: play a couple matches against him/them and try to improve/learn, but quit the queue for some time and come back later/another day if it gets too frustrating (instead of continuing and perhaps ragequitting GSF forever). At least that's the way how I handle it.

RickDagles's Avatar


RickDagles
11.12.2017 , 11:50 PM | #30
The problem with premades is that you don't need one 95% of the time, and therefore 95% of the games become stomps. But when the other side forms a decent team then you get premade vs premade battles which are by far the most fun and intense part of this game. In a perfect world we would just organize premade vs premade 8v8 battles or even premade 4v4 battles. I know it's frustrating to lose when you get unlucky with bad 'extra' teammates, but isn't it more frustrating wasting hours without any real competition?