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Please re-think taking away some of our decorations in the server merge?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
Please re-think taking away some of our decorations in the server merge?

xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
10.04.2017 , 10:36 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Maybe I misunderstood the OP, but I do not think the OP is not asking for "copies" to be "additive", only those decorations that were acquired legitimately, whether those decorations were purchased or earned via achievement, drops or some other means.

Example:

Johnny purchased 5 GTN kiosks. He divides those kiosks among his legacies on 5 different servers, giving one kiosk to each legacy.

Each legacy only shows one kiosk available, but Johnny purchased 5 kiosks. Why should Johnny "lose" 4 kiosks that he purchased when the servers merge?
The same functionality that prevents extraneous copies from being created is the same functionality "robbing" the OP of the decorations. The OP can gripe about it, but that's how it works, even with the rarest, most expensive decorations, and I've been on the receiving end of that myself. It's just how it works. I'm not saying it's the best way, but to prevent the duplication as I mentioned, that's the net effect.
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Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.04.2017 , 10:52 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by xordevoreaux View Post
The same functionality that prevents extraneous copies from being created is the same functionality "robbing" the OP of the decorations. The OP can gripe about it, but that's how it works, even with the rarest, most expensive decorations, and I've been on the receiving end of that myself. It's just how it works. I'm not saying it's the best way, but to prevent the duplication as I mentioned, that's the net effect.
I understand the way it works now and the reasons for it working that way.

The point is that up until now, "merging legacies" via transfer has been voluntary and the original legacy, including any decorations purchased or earned, has remained on the origin server, so nothing was "lost". Those decorations did not move to the new server so they weren't "copied", but they were not removed from the origin server, either.

A server merge is NOT a voluntary transfer or "legacy merge". It is a forced "legacy merge" and there will be no "origin servers" on which legacies, and their decorations, can remain.

Unless I am mistaken, all that the OP is asking is that BW take into consideration that these server merges WILL cause people to lose decorations that they legitimately purchased or earned, and to make adjustments to their processes so that no legitimately acquired decorations are "lost". This is not an unreasonable request, IMO.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
10.05.2017 , 02:51 AM | #13
OK, but what about a counter-example:
* Player X creates a legacy on server Alpha, and acquires 4 Basic Metal Chairs.
* Now he transfers a character to server Beta. It, too, has 4 Basic Metal Chairs.
* Now on server Alpha, he acquires another 11. Alpha as 15, Beta has 4.
* Now Alpha and Beta are merged into Gamma. Should it have 15 or 19? X didn't pay for 19.
* What if it was Cartel Market decorations?
* What if it was a decoration that exists as CM and as in-game purchases?

Discuss.
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xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
10.05.2017 , 05:59 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
OK, but what about a counter-example:
* Player X creates a legacy on server Alpha, and acquires 4 Basic Metal Chairs.
* Now he transfers a character to server Beta. It, too, has 4 Basic Metal Chairs.
* Now on server Alpha, he acquires another 11. Alpha as 15, Beta has 4.
* Now Alpha and Beta are merged into Gamma. Should it have 15 or 19? X didn't pay for 19.
* What if it was Cartel Market decorations?
* What if it was a decoration that exists as CM and as in-game purchases?

Discuss.
I bought a Cartel Market item off the GTN with credits, not cartel coins, and added that to my legacy. The game doesn't know that I did that versus having bought it off the CM directly.

After I built up my main legacy with 27 senator rugs, 13 male twi'lek dancers, a ton of stuff from the Nightlife festival, Life Day fireplaces, etc. etc., I then copied that level 50 legacy to every server in the game. I subsequently refreshed all the servers with that same legacy after completing most of the datacrons, including the one on fleet and Rishi.

During all that, at no time did the game keep track of where a decoration in a legacy came from. There is no tag, from one decoration to the next in my legacy, whether that legacy came from credits that I spent on it on the GTN or whether I used cartel coins to acquire it, or whether a friend just handed me a ton of stuff (such as the senator rugs, those were gifts from a guildie).

Therefore, with no way having ever been put in place in the game's database to track the source of any one given decoration in a legacy, what should or should not happen is really a moot point. The devs, when they create the merge scripts, have absolutely way to distinguish who should have what preserved where, because they've no way to know what came from where.

Again, people can complain about it, but unless Bioware suddenly decides to get very generous and give me 135 senator rugs after the merge (because I have 27 rugs on each the 5 east coast servers) which aren't easy to get these days because they require cartel certificates, I seriously doubt I'll be seeing 135 after the merge. I'll have 27.
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Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.05.2017 , 09:22 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
OK, but what about a counter-example:
* Player X creates a legacy on server Alpha, and acquires 4 Basic Metal Chairs.
* Now he transfers a character to server Beta. It, too, has 4 Basic Metal Chairs.
* Now on server Alpha, he acquires another 11. Alpha as 15, Beta has 4.
* Now Alpha and Beta are merged into Gamma. Should it have 15 or 19? X didn't pay for 19.
* What if it was Cartel Market decorations?
* What if it was a decoration that exists as CM and as in-game purchases?

Discuss.
I agree that "copied" decorations should not be "additive". That would be far too susceptible to abuse. I do not think anyone has asked that "copied" decorations be "additive", only those decorations legitimately obtained.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.05.2017 , 09:34 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by xordevoreaux View Post
I bought a Cartel Market item off the GTN with credits, not cartel coins, and added that to my legacy. The game doesn't know that I did that versus having bought it off the CM directly.

After I built up my main legacy with 27 senator rugs, 13 male twi'lek dancers, a ton of stuff from the Nightlife festival, Life Day fireplaces, etc. etc., I then copied that level 50 legacy to every server in the game. I subsequently refreshed all the servers with that same legacy after completing most of the datacrons, including the one on fleet and Rishi.

During all that, at no time did the game keep track of where a decoration in a legacy came from. There is no tag, from one decoration to the next in my legacy, whether that legacy came from credits that I spent on it on the GTN or whether I used cartel coins to acquire it, or whether a friend just handed me a ton of stuff (such as the senator rugs, those were gifts from a guildie).

Therefore, with no way having ever been put in place in the game's database to track the source of any one given decoration in a legacy, what should or should not happen is really a moot point. The devs, when they create the merge scripts, have absolutely way to distinguish who should have what preserved where, because they've no way to know what came from where.

Again, people can complain about it, but unless Bioware suddenly decides to get very generous and give me 135 senator rugs after the merge (because I have 27 rugs on each the 5 east coast servers) which aren't easy to get these days because they require cartel certificates, I seriously doubt I'll be seeing 135 after the merge. I'll have 27.
You did not "lose" any of those rugs when you "merged" your legacies, as they remained on the origin server.

Now, imagine that you had bought those 27 rugs using cartel certificates across those 5 servers, with 5 on each of 3 servers and 6 on each of two other servers. After the merge you would have 6 rugs, meaning 21 of those 27 rugs that you bought with certificates simply disappeared. You might as well have just destroyed those certificates instead of using them for rugs.

It should be incumbent upon BW to ensure that NO decorations that were legitimately obtained will be "lost" in the server merges, however that is accomplished. Will they do so? Who knows?

However, it is blatantly untrue to say:

"Decorations are not impacted by the United Forces update. "

when it has already been shown that that is NOT the case.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
10.05.2017 , 09:37 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I agree that "copied" decorations should not be "additive". That would be far too susceptible to abuse. I do not think anyone has asked that "copied" decorations be "additive", only those decorations legitimately obtained.
Does their database contain enough information to do that, though? I'm not saying it does, and I'm not saying it doesn't. In a way, I'm saying that we don't know.

But I *do* know that there is *no* way to make a completely unambiguous *and* correct analysis of all cases, especially not based on "oh, well, this person bought 5 of these on the CM, therefore 5". Did he do that to get the (1+1+1+1+1 = 5), or were they copied or what? Did he get one, unlock it, copy it four times, and then sell the other 4 on the GTN? (Sorry, this person doesn't deserve to have 5.)

It's not clear to me that they would have the complete paper trail of all those things available. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Perhaps nobody thought of it until recently. (Certainly they wouldn't have thought about it at the last merges, since there were no strongholds back then.)
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xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
10.05.2017 , 09:56 AM | #18
The only paper trail that they'd have would be independent of data in the legacy itself.
After legacies are merged, Bioware would have to run another query on the purchase history of the player.
If a player purchased 6 cartel item decorations of the same kind, 2 each for each west coast server, and after the merge, the player has 2 cartel decorations of that item (which is what would happen), then a script could be run to settle the difference between the 2 in the legacy and the 6 showing in the purchase history.

However, even comparing the purchase history against the merged legacy does not exclude the possibility that the player prior to the merge put 2 in the legacy from one server and sold the cartel items on the other servers to arrive at 2 (rather than getting merged down to 2).

Bioware doesn't have a way of sorting out the difference, and to avoid duplication, Bioware has a one-size-fits-all solution, that being to apply the same legacy merge rules during the server merge as with transferring a toon.

That doesn't even get into the question of whether the player acquired any via a friend or via the GTN.
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xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
10.05.2017 , 10:01 AM | #19
The way you can know that Bioware has no tracking data on the source of what gets put into someone's decoration legacy (GTN, CM, or gifted) is how things get into the legacy. It's an icon that you click in your inventory. There is nothing on the tooltip that says "gifted from a friend" or "bought of the GTN" or "bought from the cartel market".

It's a token, and the programming that consumes the token and increases the count of the item in the player's legacy isn't keeping a separate list somewhere of how that token came to be in the player's inventory prior to being consumed.
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Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.05.2017 , 10:06 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
Does their database contain enough information to do that, though? I'm not saying it does, and I'm not saying it doesn't. In a way, I'm saying that we don't know.

But I *do* know that there is *no* way to make a completely unambiguous *and* correct analysis of all cases, especially not based on "oh, well, this person bought 5 of these on the CM, therefore 5". Did he do that to get the (1+1+1+1+1 = 5), or were they copied or what? Did he get one, unlock it, copy it four times, and then sell the other 4 on the GTN? (Sorry, this person doesn't deserve to have 5.)
If a person bought 5 of a given decoration, added on to their legacy then sold the other 4, IMO, that person legitimately obtained only ONE of those decorations.


Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
It's not clear to me that they would have the complete paper trail of all those things available. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Perhaps nobody thought of it until recently. (Certainly they wouldn't have thought about it at the last merges, since there were no strongholds back then.)
I dully understand the can of worms that BW has opened with regards to merges and decorations.

If BW cannot ensure that NO decorations legitimately obtained are lost, then they need to be honest. They need to come clean and make a statement advising everyone that they may, and likely will, lose some, or many, decorations, possibly including very expensive and rare ones.