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Does Bioware Dislike Women?


Lunafox's Avatar


Lunafox
09.27.2017 , 01:37 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by MayhemofChaonus View Post
Woah, woah, woah. Hold on guys, lets not all jump on the "Evil white capitalist patriarchy is oppressing me" bandwagon. We all know what kind of unfriendly stuff THAT leads to...

I think BW just misjudged the number of female gamers who would play SWTOR right from launch. They didn't fully plan/prepare for the number of females who would play an MMO. Statistics on most MMO's show a much larger population of men than women (usually its roughly 65% vs. 35%, depending on the brand/franchise) and Star Wars has historically been popular with men more so than women. Not in percentages but in sheer numbers, and this is simply due to the fact that there are still more heterosexual men than women in the overall gamer population (I'm not including mobile games because unless they were ported to mobile from PC or console they aren't "real video games" and mobile games are even more unbalanced in favor of women than PC/console games are in favor of men). For example lets say that 15% of all male and 15% of all female gamers play SWTOR, well if the "gamer" population is 55% v 45% in favor of men, then guess which gender has the larger number of players in SWTOR?

As for their continued "ignoring" of female gamers? I put it up to a lack of openly female forum presence and the simple fact that the BW staff is (I assume) running around like headless chickens trying to plug all the leaks from which SWTOR is bleeding out to be overly concerned with "gendered" issues, rather than outright misogyny.

Plus BW, under EA's guidance, has slowly been morphing into an SJW company, much like the failing Marvel. So I don't think its a hatred or even dislike of women, but due to various other issues.

Also, I would have loved if Lana was the traitor Luna. I think most people would have loved it too. She was, after all, Sith, and what else do Sith do? Personally, even though I'm neither gay nor female, I was actually kinda sad that Theron was the traitor. I really liked him in a "bro" kind of way. He could be an ***** sometimes and a principled pain when I'm being realistic (read as: making DS choices) and rational, but he was still "my bro", "my dude", "the guy I can trust with anything" (not so much that last one now ).

P.S. Very few people are actually genuine misogynists. The level of hatred one must achieve to become a true misogynist is beyond most people's desire and ability.



Poor, naive Corso. The poor farmboy thinks women are rational lol. I have an older sister and have had lots of female friends, and every time, without fail, the guy who respects women gets left at the side of the road and the women chase after the guys who treat them like garbage, or at least like they're worth less than them.

I do like though that Corso does at least try to teach the female smuggler to look at men logically rather than emotionally (Hint: that is how we look at you, ladies). That does him some credit, points for effort ya know?
No one is being unfriendly that I've seen, not yet. So far everyone is just speaking their mind about certain aspects of the game and how it comes across...so far so good, no unpleasantness. So, no need to 'WHOAH' anyone just yet.

This article/study shows that SWTOR has always skewed high for female players https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/1...mers-by-genre/
I've highlighted the below as being relevant to this discussion:
SWTOR has almost double the Sci-Fi MMO genre average of female gamers (29% vs. 16%). Without SWTOR, the genre average would be 11.3%, at which point the group average for High Fantasy MMOs would be more than 3 times higher than Sci-Fi MMOs.
And that's their estimate, I suspect it's higher than that (no one polled me lol). I've read other articles, which I can't find the links to atm, but they suggested the split was more like 45-50% female players...add to that the gay male population and you could have a pretty even split there.

Next you bring up the 'lack of female presence on the forum' Excuse me? Have you looked at General, there is a phenomenal amount of female presence, as indicated just by the Malavai Quinn Thread, it's second only to the Community Thread and has over 225K views and almost 6000 replies. The grand majority of participants are women. Then there is the Vector Love Bug thread, again, mostly women. Then there is a Theron Shan thread, mostly women and LGBTQ men. Then there are the Scourge threads and Arcann threads, again mostly dominated by female players.

Bioware staff have made it a point to ignore and not even deign to comment or acknowledge their female players in these threads. Just the sheer amount of response should've garnered at least one good-natured comment from the staff. The don't see us, because they don't seem to want to see us.

I understand they for a 'SJW' company, they only have one female writer on staff...in a room full of men.

Honestly, it would have made more sense if Lana had been the traitor. She has set a precedent for that behavior, not only because she's Sith and it's what they do, but she betrayed Theron during the SOR story...so that...would've made sense. But for Theron to behave as he did, without even broaching the subject with the PC doesn't make sense and was done solely for the 'GoT' style shock value. You can't do shock value for shock value alone in a story, you have to set precedents and foreshadow, none of which I saw with Theron.

I see Corso a little differently than you do Mayhem. Yes, he does have this 'gosh darn shucks ma'am' quality to him on the surface, but if you go through most psych articles that discuss behaviour that is prominent in abusers, he dings for several of the qualities, like intense jealousy, temper tantrums, excessive drinking, scolding...none of which are sterling qualities I look for in a man. And I don't think Corso has to 'teach' the Fsmug anything, she has a mind and will of her own as she should and will do as she pleases. She doesn't need him to impose his 'morality' on her. I've even heard from some that even if FSmug turns him down at every opportunity, he still acts like he's her boyfriend even in the letters. It's creepy stalkerish behaviour. Even so, some like that, and what I'm maintaining is in order for the game to be fair, female players need to have as many options as the males. Ideally, everyone gets two, and that goes for the LGBTQ+ people too, because not all will like Lana or Theron.

But yeah, you only need to read the posts on the forum to see how many female players there are, and that's not just on General, but Fanfic too, the majority of posters there are female too...I believe you, OfficerDonNZ, and wangxiuming are the exceptions and maybe a couple of others that I don't know personally.

I don't think they outright hate us, but it seems like they ignore us for their 'perceived higher male' population. If they paid attention, they'd see there is a high number of female players and it's time they paid us a little more attention...and certainly keep us in mind for development of future games.

Iceslasher's Avatar


Iceslasher
09.27.2017 , 01:44 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
I do hear people that think that the new companions shouldn't be bisexual by default. But on the other hand, when there are so few choices, every companion counts, and Bioware hasn't had the guts to make a strictly gay character since Makeb. As I said before I fully believe Lana's not supposed to like boys, but they needed a female LI for the men in KOTET, so there she is..
I have heard it also said, personally I don't care if Theron or Lana is bi ect...in my story Theron is straight...my issue is why the heck do they ALWAYS decide it MUST BE THE FEMALE romance companion who has to betray us..srsly...do they have an issue with a female companion betrayal. Do NOT point out Kaliyo , Everyone with half a brain knew without a doubt she would betray us and really she didn't exactly do it. Plus guys had an out with Temple..Didn't see any out for us with Quinn. I really think it gives the devs a complex or something ...it just boggles the mind.

Lunafox's Avatar


Lunafox
09.27.2017 , 01:50 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Iceslasher View Post
I have heard it also said, personally I don't care if Theron or Lana is bi ect...in my story Theron is straight...my issue is why the heck do they ALWAYS decide it MUST BE THE FEMALE romance companion who has to betray us..srsly...do they have an issue with a female companion betrayal. Do NOT point out Kaliyo , Everyone with half a brain knew without a doubt she would betray us and really she didn't exactly do it. Plus guys had an out with Temple..Didn't see any out for us with Quinn. I really think it gives the devs a complex or something ...it just boggles the mind.
I think all the companions should be bi so that everyone gets their choice, they're going to be whatever we as the players want them to be anyway, they'd only really be 'bi' in terms of mechanics that allow each sex to choose who they want.

I don't think it's always the female doing the betraying...they had no issue making Quinn betray...or Theron...so in terms of who is doing the betrayals, it's a fairly even split in that way, I think. In terms of the Quinncident, they should have allowed Pierce to be a romance choice, so that those who couldn't forgive could romance him, some prefer him anyway, I'm not one of them, but the choice should be there, after all guys get to choose between dark jaesa and vette and some game the system so they get both lol.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
09.27.2017 , 04:12 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
I see Corso a little differently than you do Mayhem. Yes, he does have this 'gosh darn shucks ma'am' quality to him on the surface, but if you go through most psych articles that discuss behaviour that is prominent in abusers, he dings for several of the qualities, like intense jealousy, temper tantrums, excessive drinking, scolding...none of which are sterling qualities I look for in a man. And I don't think Corso has to 'teach' the Fsmug anything, she has a mind and will of her own as she should and will do as she pleases. She doesn't need him to impose his 'morality' on her. I've even heard from some that even if FSmug turns him down at every opportunity, he still acts like he's her boyfriend even in the letters. It's creepy stalkerish behaviour. Even so, some like that, and what I'm maintaining is in order for the game to be fair, female players need to have as many options as the males. Ideally, everyone gets two, and that goes for the LGBTQ+ people too, because not all will like Lana or Theron..
This. Corso's behavior is creepy and controlling, not charming. Who says the FSmuggler needs to be taught anything, or should share his perspective?! Doc's another one. He never gives up even if the FJedi turns him down cold. And even if she does romance him, the way he proposes and pressures her to marry him on the spot is really awful.

I disagree with the idea that Lana would be a better traitor, though, especially if it's not an undercover thing. She was quirky in the Sith order in that she didn't want a title or power, she's not particularly sadistic or cruel the way, say, Darth Baras was, and she's dedicated her entire existence to helping the player. It makes no sense for her to turn around and betray them, and saying 'Oh, she's a Sith' doesn't explain it, either. Of course it doesn't make sense for Theron to really betray the player either, but I fully believe that one of the theories floating around about him either being a double agent or being controlled are correct.

Anyhoo, with the LIs, there really should be a 'rule of two' (three, ideally) - everyone gets two romance options with their orientation. The 'take this one person, or nothing' thing that happens for female players in the vanilla stories - and still happens with LGBT players - is frustrating.

Iceslasher's Avatar


Iceslasher
09.27.2017 , 09:31 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post

Anyhoo, with the LIs, there really should be a 'rule of two' (three, ideally) - everyone gets two romance options with their orientation. The 'take this one person, or nothing' thing that happens for female players in the vanilla stories - and still happens with LGBT players - is frustrating.
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I have to agree, I do like Lana the problem is Theron makes no sense and they always insist on ruining women's and male GBT romance options, Take Hylo she would have been perfect for betrayal..idk they seem to have mono focus women, LGBTQ don't exist!

Eshvara's Avatar


Eshvara
09.27.2017 , 09:38 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Iceslasher View Post
I com

I have to agree, I do like Lana the problem is Theron makes no sense and they always insist on ruining women's and male GBT romance options, Take Hylo she would have been perfect for betrayal..idk they seem to have mono focus women, LGBTQ don't exist!
Nobody cares about Hylo, you don't have to like Theron's Betrayal but come on. The pretty irrelevant alliance people?
Hairy Co-pilot.
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Iceslasher's Avatar


Iceslasher
09.27.2017 , 09:46 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Eshvara View Post
Nobody cares about Hylo, you don't have to like Theron's Betrayal but come on. The pretty irrelevant alliance people?
Makes a lot more sense then Theron and the Gault / Hylo combo was really cute, plus we do like her. She is the only one they did an effort to flesh out her character, especially in the bh story line. Gualt rescued her, saving you from the tower when you did the massive theft ect. So yeah...someone you trust, someone you have been working to get your rep up with better than Theron or Lana

casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
09.27.2017 , 11:20 AM | #38
Quote:
MayhemofChaonus;9423711]Woah, woah, woah. Hold on guys, lets not all jump on the "Evil white capitalist patriarchy is oppressing me" bandwagon. We all know what kind of unfriendly stuff THAT leads to...

I think BW just misjudged the number of female gamers who would play SWTOR right from launch. They didn't fully plan/prepare for the number of females who would play an MMO. Statistics on most MMO's show a much larger population of men than women (usually its roughly 65% vs. 35%, depending on the brand/franchise) and Star Wars has historically been popular with men more so than women. Not in percentages but in sheer numbers, and this is simply due to the fact that there are still more heterosexual men than women in the overall gamer population (I'm not including mobile games because unless they were ported to mobile from PC or console they aren't "real video games" and mobile games are even more unbalanced in favor of women than PC/console games are in favor of men). For example lets say that 15% of all male and 15% of all female gamers play SWTOR, well if the "gamer" population is 55% v 45% in favor of men, then guess which gender has the larger number of players in SWTOR?
I am going to have to disagree with you here. When I first saw Star Wars, there were actually an even amount of women and men watching the films. The town I lived in was a pretty good size one (Corpus Christi, Texas) so for a town of that size to have that amount of women in the movies, then you have to admit that Star Wars never really was for one sex. It was the one that even ladies, like myself loved and hearing that people even now think that ladies don't play video games, can't like star wars is a bit sad. Thankfully my boyfriend never had that problem. As far as the conventions you will see an even number of both represented there.

Regarding SWTOR forums, I was pleasantly surprised when I signed up on the forums (before the game launch) and discovered quite a few women were here excited to play. I also played SWG and most of the men I played with never thought it was strange that I as a lady was playing a Star Wars game. Sure there were some "men" that didn't want to believe it and even said for me to prove it but I ignored them.
A girl should be two things: classy and fabulous. A girl should also always be a lady even when arguing. If you like redheads click my Referral link Referral: http://www.swtor.com/r/VkfKqj

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
09.27.2017 , 12:27 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Iceslasher View Post
I com

I have to agree, I do like Lana the problem is Theron makes no sense and they always insist on ruining women's and male GBT romance options, Take Hylo she would have been perfect for betrayal..idk they seem to have mono focus women, LGBTQ don't exist!
And they always seem to expect the female PCs/players to smile and forgive, too, which makes me mad. I hear you there.

For me, the issue with this betrayal storyline is that it is SO tired. How many times is the player betrayed just in the course of KOTFE/KOTET, with massive consequences? I count:
Spoiler


Now factor in the numerous betrayals that happen across the class stories, and our poor characters are awash in backstabbers. So what should a new and exciting storyline be? Obviously, a betrayal! *facepalm*

I do feel like Theron/Lana should be considered 'mission critical' since they serve as de facto narrators and guides for the player (and can be switched out for Senya/Arcann if you take that route in KOTET) and that the writers should leave them in that position of stability for the player. Even in the Star Wars movies, Luke could always count on Han and Leia never to betray him.

Iceslasher's Avatar


Iceslasher
09.27.2017 , 01:43 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
I am going to have to disagree with you here. When I first saw Star Wars, there were actually an even amount of women and men watching the films. The town I lived in was a pretty good size one (Corpus Christi, Texas) so for a town of that size to have that amount of women in the movies, then you have to admit that Star Wars never really was for one sex. It was the one that even ladies, like myself loved and hearing that people even now think that ladies don't play video games, can't like star wars is a bit sad. Thankfully my boyfriend never had that problem. As far as the conventions you will see an even number of both represented there.

Regarding SWTOR forums, I was pleasantly surprised when I signed up on the forums (before the game launch) and discovered quite a few women were here excited to play. I also played SWG and most of the men I played with never thought it was strange that I as a lady was playing a Star Wars game. Sure there were some "men" that didn't want to believe it and even said for me to prove it but I ignored them.
Absolutely in a nutshell, I had some idiot tell me that women only play mmo's to "FIND a man or Support their man" They do NOT tank or dps they only heal" no joke this was about 20 years ago in a different game, this is why I was so pleased when swtor came out and there was actually female toons..with female romance companions...sadly my first toon was a warrior so i thought hey republic won't have that issue with betrayal..i tried a trooper...bad choice but the stories were really good and no i was NEVER a healer. Point is...we enjoy the game itself..i just keep thinking ...do the devs have that awful mind set from 20 years ago??? That we can't play nm my raid group is evenly divided 4 men and 4 women ...1 woman tank, 1 man, srsly...no one holds our hand..we just want to be treated fairly . Plus I think the LGBTQ finally having romance options is Awesome..it's about time but are they also going to have to go through what we have been dealing with for years??