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Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
08.14.2017 , 11:42 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Wimbleton View Post
If a DPS is guarding, he can be destroyed instantly.
Everything you're saying about how risky skanking is is completely true and an equally good group with someone in actual tank spec will reliably walk all over a group without one. But the reality is that PVP in this game is not filled with enough observant DPS with tanks of their own to dominate skanks. It's filled with bad, unobservant DPS and far too many healers. You'd be right to point out that skanks are not at fault for those problems but they undoubtedly thrive because of them so it behooves us to ask: what benefit does easy skanking provide, exactly? It's not clear to me how they make the game any better while clearly providing an enormous advantage because of what the queue is like.
Quote: Originally Posted by Wimbleton View Post
True tanks in DPS gear is a whole different matter. I do not think they should be putting out the numbers they are and I think you fix this by making tank gear work in PVP somehow. That will pull their stats out of mastery/crit and into defensive stats. Now give their damage abilities some sort of positive effect by defensive stats and you'll be good to go.
The issues with mitigation gear are less important than the fact that just going tank spec and putting on a shield make you tanky enough to do that role effectively in most situations. As long as you can usually get away with using DPS gear choosing to put on mitigation gear (no matter how much they improve it in PVP) will be tantamount to choosing to ruin your damage with little or no benefit a lot of the time. There are a variety of ways they could make running DPS gear in tank spec foolish but just buffing mitigation stats in PVP isn't going to do the trick.

Tanks definitely do too much damage -especially AOE- but I personally will be relatively disinclined to care much until bioware does something about TTK on mercs, snipers, and maras.

Caeliuxrules's Avatar


Caeliuxrules
08.14.2017 , 12:01 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Wimbleton View Post
If a DPS is guarding, he can be destroyed instantly. If they are smart, they wont start out guarding and then wait for the uncleansable stun etc. They need to be switched to but likely you have a healer coming out of stun into a white bar. If the healer has interrupt protection then you don't get to kill the skank that cycle.

So keep focus on the healer and let this dmg soften the skank, then soon as white bar is up/interrupt protection is off, switch back to skank and control the healer.

You keep doing that until either healer or skank dies, typically skank dies. Takes about 30sec-1min.

Skank tanks who do great damage vs teams that do mediocre dmg seem like god-mode, I do understand this.

Skank guarding is high risk and thats why I think its ok.

True tanks in DPS gear is a whole different matter. I do not think they should be putting out the numbers they are and I think you fix this by making tank gear work in PVP somehow. That will pull their stats out of mastery/crit and into defensive stats. Now give their damage abilities some sort of positive effect by defensive stats and you'll be good to go.

TL;DR, its a problem of poorly designed true tanks that are causing the problems you experience with Tanks in DPS gear and skank tanks. Additionally, it causes a very hard set divide in instances of skill gap. Low skilled DPS have no chance against any tank or tDPS with healer, regardless, so they're gonna blame it on something.
Good post and agree with all your points.

Sure not so great DPs has problems, but even the great players notice the difference and if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck.

Meaning, the problem does exist, tanks in this game needs revamped and hot fixed for pvp balance. Even the combat team knows it coming from musco...
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Caeliuxrules's Avatar


Caeliuxrules
08.14.2017 , 01:05 PM | #23
To add,

The real reason why we having these problems is bolster. I think its a pain in *** for them to make tanks be actual tanks cause of way bolster is. Back then without bolster tanks could be tanks cause of expertise and mini maxing. Now with this handicap bolster system if they revamped the way tanks should be I believe it would be a over balance with tanks.

Now this goes into reason why bolster should be ripped away, have a mastery cap where you have to be capped with starter PvP gear to play. Have ranked gear separate with its own mastery cap where ranked gear can not be used in regs.

Just like old days, a system where warzone gear is needed and ranked gear is grinded. I mean why not, RNG is complete trash and bolster is garbage as well.

You hit 70, on spec you wanna be, you get free PvP gear to start. Bring back venders, bring back a grind.

Allow pvpers to feel like pvpers again!

Its only way for this game to thrive again and balance should be across the board. Since bolster been introduced it has caused too many problems, and has allowed this game to be dictated by poor judgment calls for casual players.

Bolster is sole reason why tanks have no mitigation in 2017..

@Bioware
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Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
08.14.2017 , 01:36 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Caeliuxrules View Post
Good post and agree with all your points.

Sure not so great DPs has problems, but even the great players notice the difference and if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck.

Meaning, the problem does exist, tanks in this game needs revamped and hot fixed for pvp balance. Even the combat team knows it coming from musco...
It isn't just tanks but their DPS builds that need fixing. Right now the most viable build is a skank because their dps builds lack defenses equal to those of other dps. Heck it can be argued that even as skank builds they lack the defenses of some dps.

I'm sure a problem exists I'm not sure everyone posting either knows what it is or agrees on it.

DPS who can guard (dps builds of shadow/vangard/guardians) who do guard are in for a beating. Seriously the only class of those three who have really decent defenses is the shadow and if he guards he will get popped out of stealth every time his guard target gets hit, so not a good choice. If a vangard guards as dps guards...well I am proud of them for trying so hard but any serious attempt to kill their guarded friend will kill that vangard super fast. A guardian can get away with it from time to time and might be the best dps to use guard but and I have to mention this guardians have likely the second worst set of defenses as dps, they will not be able to sustain guarding anyone for an extended period of time.

Is DPS who guard a problem? Maybe but I bet DPS who heal have a much greater effect on the game. I've seen scoundrel dps break 1 million heals that is far more game breaking than the short time a dps can survive guarding someone.

Skanks, to build a proper skank takes time and effort. Just throwing on DPS gear will not work for you very well. To build it right and be effective you need tank armorings, a shield, high enduarance dps mods, high endurance dps enchants, end/power augments, dps relics, dps implants, and dps ear. All this and you have someone not worth bringing on any PvE content because you can't really tank and your dps will be too low, although you will steal threat because you have increased threat generation. Now all this done you ARE NOT matching a dps in damage, not AoE damage not single target damage. So to sum it up you just burned one set of tank gear, made mods and enchancements to replace the tank ones, and augmented it all with augments you would never want to use anywhere else. That's a lot of effort in the end. You are doing subpar dps but much better than a tank and you can tank about as well as a tank.

Tanks....well they are tough....but their augments need to be different than what you would use for PvE.....and well your tough......

And this brings us to another issue is you can build a dps or healer that is very capable for both PvE and PvP. But you can't really do the same with tank. So even if you plan on being pure tank in PvP you will need two sets of gear to pull it off. That's a bummer and if you are building a second set why would you build a tank and a skank will tank just as well and do more damage? Tank stats not being worth your time in PvP is an issue to be sure.

Anyway as I see it we have way more than one problem.

1. Healing
2. DPS defenses for the tank possible classes (Guardian and Vangard, shadow is fine)
3. DPS of the tank possible classes (except for infiltration all the dps builds are on the low end)
4. Maybe DPS who guard and DPS who heal
5. Tanks....tank stats do little good.
6. Maybe Skanks....maybe if they were just a mid point between dps and tank they would be fine in my veiw.

Caeliuxrules's Avatar


Caeliuxrules
08.14.2017 , 02:51 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
It isn't just tanks but their DPS builds that need fixing. Right now the most viable build is a skank because their dps builds lack defenses equal to those of other dps. Heck it can be argued that even as skank builds they lack the defenses of some dps.

I'm sure a problem exists I'm not sure everyone posting either knows what it is or agrees on it.

DPS who can guard (dps builds of shadow/vangard/guardians) who do guard are in for a beating. Seriously the only class of those three who have really decent defenses is the shadow and if he guards he will get popped out of stealth every time his guard target gets hit, so not a good choice. If a vangard guards as dps guards...well I am proud of them for trying so hard but any serious attempt to kill their guarded friend will kill that vangard super fast. A guardian can get away with it from time to time and might be the best dps to use guard but and I have to mention this guardians have likely the second worst set of defenses as dps, they will not be able to sustain guarding anyone for an extended period of time.

Is DPS who guard a problem? Maybe but I bet DPS who heal have a much greater effect on the game. I've seen scoundrel dps break 1 million heals that is far more game breaking than the short time a dps can survive guarding someone.

Skanks, to build a proper skank takes time and effort. Just throwing on DPS gear will not work for you very well. To build it right and be effective you need tank armorings, a shield, high enduarance dps mods, high endurance dps enchants, end/power augments, dps relics, dps implants, and dps ear. All this and you have someone not worth bringing on any PvE content because you can't really tank and your dps will be too low, although you will steal threat because you have increased threat generation. Now all this done you ARE NOT matching a dps in damage, not AoE damage not single target damage. So to sum it up you just burned one set of tank gear, made mods and enchancements to replace the tank ones, and augmented it all with augments you would never want to use anywhere else. That's a lot of effort in the end. You are doing subpar dps but much better than a tank and you can tank about as well as a tank.

Tanks....well they are tough....but their augments need to be different than what you would use for PvE.....and well your tough......

And this brings us to another issue is you can build a dps or healer that is very capable for both PvE and PvP. But you can't really do the same with tank. So even if you plan on being pure tank in PvP you will need two sets of gear to pull it off. That's a bummer and if you are building a second set why would you build a tank and a skank will tank just as well and do more damage? Tank stats not being worth your time in PvP is an issue to be sure.

Anyway as I see it we have way more than one problem.

1. Healing
2. DPS defenses for the tank possible classes (Guardian and Vangard, shadow is fine)
3. DPS of the tank possible classes (except for infiltration all the dps builds are on the low end)
4. Maybe DPS who guard and DPS who heal
5. Tanks....tank stats do little good.
6. Maybe Skanks....maybe if they were just a mid point between dps and tank they would be fine in my veiw.
Great points mate, I agree with all of it. Game has more than a tank problem..
Former GM of We are KAPPA and FIGHT on The Harbinger
The Swiftsure>The Fatman>The PO5>The Bastion>The Harbinger
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

Caeliuxrules's Avatar


Caeliuxrules
08.14.2017 , 06:26 PM | #26
This is how tanking should be again.

https://youtu.be/QcbDcwMhqz0

Justbodies was a example how tanking was done in old days.

No reason why game can't be like this again.
Former GM of We are KAPPA and FIGHT on The Harbinger
The Swiftsure>The Fatman>The PO5>The Bastion>The Harbinger
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

Liquor's Avatar


Liquor
08.14.2017 , 08:02 PM | #27
Immortal Juggernaut
I run 3 sets of gear in PvP.

High HP tank set for voidstar guard and huttball. Works great, shines with a healer. (Set is min/maxed)

High Mitigation set for testing - low HP but avoided 20% and absorbed 30%. It does work as I'm not using CDs near as much as the high HP Tank set (Set is not min/maxed...yet) <---- A ton of fun watching all the misses and low incoming damage which pisses off the DPS. I could pull out the absorb/shield augments for Fortitude, but man that mitigation is comical at times. Toss up a DCD and it can be very frustrating for Burst specs as they blow their burst all over your DCD . I'm still testing and completing the min/max. It's my PvE gear but fun at times inside a WZ. It is worth another look but could use some improvements.

Pure DPS set with tank armorings - voidstar attack and arenas. When I want to blow up a guard at an off-node. With the right utilities, it will get 32K CBs often (Set is min/maxed)

I don't top DPS boards or protection, as I'm a Regstar and play objectively. Guard swapping, taunting, holding nodes, defending nodes, and peels. Keeping an eye over the entire WZ, I usually react much quicker than an off-node guard can send an incoming call out. Having multiple sets of gear to pull from and use to their full advantage really screws the enemy up.due to ranked drama and BS it is rare for me to Q yolo or Grank

TL:DR - The full mitigation set could use more HP and be more valuable in PvP. The High HP set is perfect where it's at. The full DPS set could be toned down. Immortal Jugg is a great hybrid class when geared and speced to play off of it's advantages. Natural 111% accuracy means we don't miss very often.
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Glocko's Avatar


Glocko
08.15.2017 , 08:44 AM | #28
I would bet 100% of the "Nerf Skank Tanks" threads are started by snipers, Ops, Marauders, and Mercs....I guess their clear advantages are not enough for them. They need Juggs, sins, and PTs to have even less survivability so no other class has any chance at all. They should all petition that we can't wear any armor and we should not be able to use the sprint ability ffs

Stellarcrusade's Avatar


Stellarcrusade
08.15.2017 , 09:12 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Glocko View Post
I would bet 100% of the "Nerf Skank Tanks" threads are started by snipers, Ops, Marauders, and Mercs....I guess their clear advantages are not enough for them. They need Juggs, sins, and PTs to have even less survivability so no other class has any chance at all. They should all petition that we can't wear any armor and we should not be able to use the sprint ability ffs
Exactly, just poor players that do not know how to handle tanks in PvP. If they change tanks, all mercs/snipers should be required to play ONLY tanks in PvP from that day forward....;-) Really only a poor player doesn't know how to handle skanks in pvp, and they have a very narrow role already in PvP, changes suggested would be eliminating them from PvP completely.

These are the same chumps that fooled the devs into getting rid of healers in PvP, now they want to get rid of tanks, then it will be any remaining class that isn't a merc or sniper and we'll just have joke wars of mercs killing mercs, booooooooring.

QuiveringPotato's Avatar


QuiveringPotato
08.15.2017 , 09:55 AM | #30
I don't think I've ever seen a player skank tanking (by that I mean tank spec, tank armorings but full dps gear otherwise) that I could respect as a skilled player. I'm positive that every one of them would be both less useful in a regular dps spec, and an even more mediocre tank if they played high HP tank.

It's a cheesey placeholder for skill.

The way I suggested to fix skanktanking was to copy wow like this game has already done in numerous ways, and make "Mastery" give discipline specific passives instead of dmg.

This way, they could remove basically all the dps stats from tank gear and instead make it stack mastery, where it'd give the wearer more damage reduction, or some other beneficial tanky stat.

Also lock guard to tank spec.
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