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Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
08.14.2017 , 04:26 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Caeliuxrules View Post
Tanks with dps gear being able to guard, anyone being a dps and trying to tank was and is redundant.

Guard and shield needs tuned where you have to have a absortion or shield rating to equip.

Taking guard from dps and doing as such as I mentioned solves the problem.
If a dps geared toon is going to guard, just dps them (tank spec included). They will likely remove guard fast to keep from taking extra damage. They shouldnt last very long as it is.

If the scenario you are complaining about primarily involves a healer, that is not a guard issue but a healer issue.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.14.2017 , 04:44 AM | #12
sigh, guardian tank main here, again... i feel like i should save this as a word document so i can stop having to type it repeatedly...

Anyway... I have played tank, skank tank, and vigi guardians in PVP.

A. DPS specs shouldn't have guard in my opinion. There is no matchmaking in PVP anyway. So why make tanks less useful? I will say, to make up for the lost utility and because they are squishy as crap anyway dps PTs and guardians need better defensives. By the way, a merc or sniper can just sit at range and pew pew away until we're dead unless we can LOS, in which case my running around trying to avoid the merc or sniper slaughtering me sort of hurts dps. Also dps guarding can be easily destroyed by dumping one dps on them while the others are on the healer. If i'm being too stupid to pull the guard taking 1.5x damage slaughters my squishy dps guardian.

B. Why bother regular tanking? the gear doesn't add any survivability and means you do less damage. Make tank gear do something and guess what? I'll go back to pure tanking.

C. I do agree skank tanking is OP at the moment. Killing tank dps will also kill tanks ability to properly hold aggro in PVE. I therefore strongly disapprove of nerfing tank damage.

So summary: give guard back to tanks, make dps survivability better for dps specs of tank capable classes, and make tank gear do something.

brishae's Avatar


brishae
08.14.2017 , 05:38 AM | #13
Why can dps specs guard to begin with? what *********** genius at bioware thought this was a good change? the fact they locked stances to specs so people couldn't do this was one of the best changes they've ever done.

Why is it acceptable that sin tanks can do 4k-5k dps quite easily. (Good tanks anyway, Molra/Valek/Etude/Marzi)

Why is tank damage so high in the first place for a support role???????????????? Bring back old combat dev, the new dude who got hired for 3.0 is brain dead.

Tank dps needs to be gutted or guard needs to be removed from this game like holy ****.
Carthy =)

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.14.2017 , 06:03 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by brishae View Post
Why can dps specs guard to begin with? what *********** genius at bioware thought this was a good change? the fact they locked stances to specs so people couldn't do this was one of the best changes they've ever done.

Why is it acceptable that sin tanks can do 4k-5k dps quite easily. (Good tanks anyway, Molra/Valek/Etude/Marzi)

Why is tank damage so high in the first place for a support role???????????????? Bring back old combat dev, the new dude who got hired for 3.0 is brain dead.

Tank dps needs to be gutted or guard needs to be removed from this game like holy ****.
As i mentioned just above, in tank gear, damage is not as high. In a raiding environment i'm generally pulling around 2.5-3k as a tank (guardian). As a skank in pvp idk i really haven't been paying attention but since i have killed some people 1v1 i'm assuming it's higher. because dps gear. I hate skanking, i absolutely despise the entire concept, but like a real hypocrite I do it because I hate being squishy more. My three recommendations from above (and from virtually everywhere else on these forums) would solve the problem. People that want to tank, would actually tank if they were the only spec that could guard and tank gear meant something. People that want to dps would dps if the dps spec did more than die first every round. even with a healer.

Literally all nerfing tank damage will do is kill threat generation in pve. and make already tight dps checks even worse. so please no. fix the gear and defensive balance on classes.

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
08.14.2017 , 06:57 AM | #15
Skank tanking is a direct result from two things. One tank stats are all but worthless in PvP. Two most of the tank classes PvP builds are unperforming by a good deal in PvP because their defenses are poor.

DPs who can guard is an issue, dps who can heal might be as well.

But lets be honest while skank tank (a redundant term meaning scrapper-tank tank (from CoH)) is solid they aren't dps champions and most of the OP classes can and do handle them. Its just they give the classes that are currently struggling a build they can compete with.

In a perfect world skank tanking wouldn't be super effective but because right now the only tanking stat that matters is health it is effective/. Since you can max out your health using dps mods and enhancements and go with end/power augs you can be the best possible tank while hitting pretty hard. The game simply doesn't know how to make a tank, a pure tank, useful in PvP so while you can try and take away skank tanking all you will be doing is knee capping the tank classes for any sort of PvP at this moment. And lets be honest, skank tanks aren't the biggest PvP issue going. Healing, Mercs defenses, Ops, and Gunslingers are far more pressing matters.

omaan's Avatar


omaan
08.14.2017 , 07:29 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Caeliuxrules View Post
Skank Tank = Tank with dps gear.
Shank Tank = Dps with guard, classes like jug, pt, or assassin.

Fyi: I don't care what you wanna call it, both are skank tank in my eyes. Whatever. You wanna call it skank, spank, shank, potatoes, do so. Bottom line a wannabe tank being a dps is a hybrid imbalance, period.

On topic: This debate and issue been ongoing for long time, now it's as bad as it gets with countless players playing this hybrid overturned class abomination.

Snave had a interview on this June 2016 among other issues and even Musco agreed and even commented the combat team knew the issues with guard and tank problems and agreed this was a serious issue for balance changes needed. Snave and Eric agreed a bandaid first is take away guard from dps, then Snave said exactly how to fix tanks is by making absorb or shield rating co exist for pvp where tanks actually can be tanks. Making guard only usable with a certain amount of shield rating or absorb boom fixed.

Link to interview Snave and Musco skip to 24:20
https://youtu.be/to0gNJkjIfs

My question is to Eric Musco, or any Dev who reads these forums for feedback.

Question: Are you going to address this issue in 5.4 and if not then, when?

Thanks.
Can you please write this thread in general discussion topic? Devs actually dont read pvp forum.
Anyway, as a guy who plays pvp very much in this game, and playing on different servers i can tell for sure that a skank-tank is a very big advantage... Teams with a skilled skank-tank who swaps guard winning those teams which doesnt have a skank-tank. Whilst being able to save group members from big dps, save healers which are pretty opped in this game, skank-tanks are also capable of doing huge dps, and often getting to ranked 1-2 dps boards (especially pt skank-tanks). This ruins warzones, makes it less dynamic since no one is dying in a team with a skank tank, and if both teams have skank tanks it's just gets ridiculous (1-2 killing blows per whole warzone).

DerSchneider's Avatar


DerSchneider
08.14.2017 , 09:06 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
Can you please write this thread in general discussion topic? Devs actually dont read pvp forum.
Anyway, as a guy who plays pvp very much in this game, and playing on different servers i can tell for sure that a skank-tank is a very big advantage... Teams with a skilled skank-tank who swaps guard winning those teams which doesnt have a skank-tank. Whilst being able to save group members from big dps, save healers which are pretty opped in this game, skank-tanks are also capable of doing huge dps, and often getting to ranked 1-2 dps boards (especially pt skank-tanks). This ruins warzones, makes it less dynamic since no one is dying in a team with a skank tank, and if both teams have skank tanks it's just gets ridiculous (1-2 killing blows per whole warzone).
And now take a look at leaderboards, how much overpowered PTs managed to hit tier 1 in this stupidly long season?
12! In whole game. Easy to guess they are all skank tanks. Pls nerf. Or just remove this class from the game, the effect will be the same.
Nightrain Juggernaut

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
08.14.2017 , 09:33 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by DerSchneider View Post
And now take a look at leaderboards, how much overpowered PTs managed to hit tier 1 in this stupidly long season?
12! In whole game. Easy to guess they are all skank tanks. Pls nerf. Or just remove this class from the game, the effect will be the same.
I hate to say it but in my opinion PT skanks are the weakest of the skanks. Their DC are still not a match for many pure dps class dc and their dps is lower. But they are in a better place then PT dps....but still......

Caeliuxrules's Avatar


Caeliuxrules
08.14.2017 , 09:39 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by brishae View Post
Why can dps specs guard to begin with? what *********** genius at bioware thought this was a good change? the fact they locked stances to specs so people couldn't do this was one of the best changes they've ever done.

Why is it acceptable that sin tanks can do 4k-5k dps quite easily. (Good tanks anyway, Molra/Valek/Etude/Marzi)

Why is tank damage so high in the first place for a support role???????????????? Bring back old combat dev, the new dude who got hired for 3.0 is brain dead.

Tank dps needs to be gutted or guard needs to be removed from this game like holy ****.
I'm with ya. Makes no sense to me.

Tanks should get mitigation from shield and absorb and shield rating. Why in world wouldn't that be a hot fix is baffling to me for PvP. And allowing tanks to use DPs gear in PvP is beyond imbalance. Makes no sense what so ever allowing hybrid tanks in PvP.

Again easy fix rip guard and taunt from DPs, make tank spec only gear actual tank gear then pvp will have a real trinity.

Until then game is broken.
Former GM of We are KAPPA and FIGHT on The Harbinger
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Wimbleton's Avatar


Wimbleton
08.14.2017 , 10:12 AM | #20
If a DPS is guarding, he can be destroyed instantly. If they are smart, they wont start out guarding and then wait for the uncleansable stun etc. They need to be switched to but likely you have a healer coming out of stun into a white bar. If the healer has interrupt protection then you don't get to kill the skank that cycle.

So keep focus on the healer and let this dmg soften the skank, then soon as white bar is up/interrupt protection is off, switch back to skank and control the healer.

You keep doing that until either healer or skank dies, typically skank dies. Takes about 30sec-1min.

Skank tanks who do great damage vs teams that do mediocre dmg seem like god-mode, I do understand this.

Skank guarding is high risk and thats why I think its ok.

True tanks in DPS gear is a whole different matter. I do not think they should be putting out the numbers they are and I think you fix this by making tank gear work in PVP somehow. That will pull their stats out of mastery/crit and into defensive stats. Now give their damage abilities some sort of positive effect by defensive stats and you'll be good to go.

TL;DR, its a problem of poorly designed true tanks that are causing the problems you experience with Tanks in DPS gear and skank tanks. Additionally, it causes a very hard set divide in instances of skill gap. Low skilled DPS have no chance against any tank or tDPS with healer, regardless, so they're gonna blame it on something.