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Yoda and Darth Sidious


BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
12.31.2011 , 11:17 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Tarsh View Post
Qui gon jinn is the most powerful jedi... he was the first to split his spirit into an apparition (in canon starwars), and taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to do it also

http://www.starwars.com/explore/ency...njinn/#!/media
http://www.starwars.com/explore/ency...njinn/#!/media

Qui gon even through death attempted to intervene with Anakins slaughter of the sand people in revenge of his mothers death

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjFkB...eature=related
2:51 ^

Yoda also never permitted Qui Gon on to the jedi counsel purely out of spite towards Qui gons superiority and defiance to the jedi code, but qui gon knew better then to think strictly to a set of ideals that had been thought out
Qui gon: feel, dont think, use you instincts

Yoda after recieving Quigons teaching:

Yoda to luke: You must feelthe force around you


You have to face it.. Qui Gon was completely underrated and some even argue that if it was he that survived the fight with Darth Maul and trained Anakin, Anakin would have never fell to the darkside

the main argument anyone would bring up is why would he die if hes so powerful.. well thats just it, ever wonder why Qui gon entered a meditative state while he waited for the shield generators to drop? because he could see through the shroud of the darkside and knew he was going to be slain, preparing his body to reach the apparition form he trained himself to take after death. its funny that Obi Wan also did the same thing when being struck down by Vader in the 4th movie almost as if to pass the torch to Luke who would ultimately destroy what remained of the sith..

there was a thread I read on these forums about what if Obi Wan beat Vader or tried to fight him in stead of sacrificing himself.. I think at that point of his training Obi Wan could also see the outcomes of his decisions and with him sacrificing himself he ultimately gave strength to his apprentice to defeat his father and sidious.. like wise one can only conclude that is also was an outcome of Qui Gons intuition... its so poetic and possible it has to be true, which begs the question why is it that a noble sacrifice happens at the beginning of each trilogy? well watch the end of ROTJ to find out.. the good guys win just as Qui Gon in his power intended it to end


Qui gon should be on everyones list as rank number 1

heres a video assisting my belief, and the beliefs of many others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OHdHKEr5A

1. He was not the first. You'll learn that in a Republic Flash Point. (I'll leave it at that.)
2. Just because you heard his voice saying his name twice? And yet he still slaughtered them all.
3. If Anakin wasn't stupid he would have become the most powerful being in all of Star Wars, If Obi Wan died Anakin would have got some terrible master, lot of ifs and no is.
4. He died fightitng Maul. Who is superior to him in lightsaber skills. Superior too allot of people in skills with a saber.


Your dreaming you'll wake up soon. Apparation and teaching other Jedi doesn't make you the most powerful Jedi. Reads Qui-Gon's feats, and compare them to Lukes or Yoda's or Obi Wan's.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

LordMerrick's Avatar


LordMerrick
12.31.2011 , 12:20 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Nowhere does it state that Yoda wasn't in his prime. It pretty much comes down to this. Yoda may be the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. However, Sidious was simply a more powerful Sith. If you watch the scenes you'll notice that except in two instances it almost seemed as if Sidious was playing with him. The only two times he seemed worried was when he was being pushed back in a saber lock and also when Yoda was absorbing his force lightning.

There was a LOT of other stuff going on in that fight and I mean absolutely no offense but I think your analysis is overly simplistic. I realize we are only talking about a fake story here but such as it is....

When Sidious was throwing altars at yoda, he had the upper ground, a significant advantage in war tactics that is almost *impossible* to overcome. This is the same advantage that gave obi-wan the upper hand against Anakin and allowed obi to finally defeat him after what was hours of what appeared to be an equally matched struggle (personally I think ani was the better warrior but the point remains: high ground gave the win to obi).

That is why Sidious was laughing, when only minutes earlier he was serious. At first he was entirely unsure of victory and even tried to run away but yoda stopped him. When by pure luck he gained the upper ground, he knew victory was his and he became overjoyed with surprise and relief at his luck.

But even at such a great disadvantage, and with altars of metal being heaved at him yoda STILL held his own and was able to continue the fight for a time, a very strong testament to his superior power. When yoda fell...it was about 100 feet and the distance was now so great, the higher ground was now so much higher it was impossible for anyone, no matter how powerful, to climb his way back up there (with altars flying at him) and continue the battle.

On top of that he lost his light saber in the fall, and was probably injured. Sidious was now free to call for backup support, and the fight became un-winable. Sidious did NOT defeat yoda....but yoda had failed his mission....which was to defeat sidious.


Yoda said he had no choice but to enter exile......because he knew that it was extremely unlikely for him to ever get another opportunity to face sidious one on one like that again, sidious who was now an emperor with a galactic army at his command would surely not take any chances on losing his throne by something so silly as facing yoda alone by choice.

And yes, as a matter of fact, we learn in movie VI, which was only about 20 years later, that yoda was more than 800 years old and died of old age! How could you POSSIBLY be so willfully blind to the fact that yoda, as an old man, was so very very far removed from his fighting prime? Even obi wan was too old to really operate as a jedi knight by the time luke was grown...and obi wan said as much himself during the movie.

By the time sidious came around yoda had stopped fighting and acted only as a teacher and council member - a wise elder in the business of knowledge rather than fighting. He only faced dooku and sidious because there was nobody else around who could even come close to a hope to win those duels.

LordMerrick's Avatar


LordMerrick
12.31.2011 , 12:28 PM | #53
Tarsh said "Qui Gon was completely underrated and some even argue that if it was he that survived the fight with Darth Maul and trained Anakin, Anakin would have never fell to the darkside"

I too have felt that way.....obi-wan was a total weenie with anakin....allowing ani to get away with far too much disrespect and arrogance......and this only caused ani to lose trust that his master knew what was best for him. Qui Gon had a completely different style, one that would have kept anikan in check and would have forbidden any friendship with chancellor palpatine and possibly kept him away from padme as well.


But I think being a better teacher, and discovering a rare and unique force power, are completely separate issues from an argument of who is the most powerful jedi. Qui Gon discovered something great and mysterious, like a scientist.....this does not make him a great warrior. Two separate things.

Lmessi's Avatar


Lmessi
12.31.2011 , 02:31 PM | #54
Its all speculation, there seems to be no consistency really. In The Phantom Menace Darth Maul holds his own against QuiGon and ObiWan, two very powerful jedi's, eventually killing the master and has the apprentice on the ropes but becomes arrogant and complacent and is in the end killed himself we presume the anger and determination of seeing his master killed gives obi wan the extra push to kill Darth Maul. Later the same Obi-Wan along with anakin are comprehensively beaten by dooku.

Later dooku is defeated by anakin, we are to presume that this is due to anakin having become more powerful and beginning to fulfill his potential as the greatest wielder of the force a galaxy far far away has seen so far along with his anger. Bear in mind that Palpatine told Yoda it was no use and that darth vader would "become more powerful than both of us".

So this all seems to be going as you'd expect but anakin is later defeated by obiwan leaving him very nearly dead. Considering that obi wan was no match for dooku but anakin defeated him then embraced the dark side you would have thought that a fight between the two would have had a different outcome.

Whatever happened after return of the jedi i do not know or wish to im hapy for that to be the end of the tale for me but at no point did luke defeat his father - in a duel or combat sense anyway, he saw the good that remained and brought his father back to the light.

LordMerrick's Avatar


LordMerrick
01.01.2012 , 11:22 AM | #55
.......

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.01.2012 , 11:38 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by LordMerrick View Post
There was a LOT of other stuff going on in that fight and I mean absolutely no offense but I think your analysis is overly simplistic. I realize we are only talking about a fake story here but such as it is....

When Sidious was throwing altars at yoda, he had the upper ground, a significant advantage in war tactics that is almost *impossible* to overcome. This is the same advantage that gave obi-wan the upper hand against Anakin and allowed obi to finally defeat him after what was hours of what appeared to be an equally matched struggle (personally I think ani was the better warrior but the point remains: high ground gave the win to obi).

That is why Sidious was laughing, when only minutes earlier he was serious. At first he was entirely unsure of victory and even tried to run away but yoda stopped him. When by pure luck he gained the upper ground, he knew victory was his and he became overjoyed with surprise and relief at his luck.

But even at such a great disadvantage, and with altars of metal being heaved at him yoda STILL held his own and was able to continue the fight for a time, a very strong testament to his superior power. When yoda fell...it was about 100 feet and the distance was now so great, the higher ground was now so much higher it was impossible for anyone, no matter how powerful, to climb his way back up there (with altars flying at him) and continue the battle.

On top of that he lost his light saber in the fall, and was probably injured. Sidious was now free to call for backup support, and the fight became un-winable. Sidious did NOT defeat yoda....but yoda had failed his mission....which was to defeat sidious.


Yoda said he had no choice but to enter exile......because he knew that it was extremely unlikely for him to ever get another opportunity to face sidious one on one like that again, sidious who was now an emperor with a galactic army at his command would surely not take any chances on losing his throne by something so silly as facing yoda alone by choice.

And yes, as a matter of fact, we learn in movie VI, which was only about 20 years later, that yoda was more than 800 years old and died of old age! How could you POSSIBLY be so willfully blind to the fact that yoda, as an old man, was so very very far removed from his fighting prime? Even obi wan was too old to really operate as a jedi knight by the time luke was grown...and obi wan said as much himself during the movie.

By the time sidious came around yoda had stopped fighting and acted only as a teacher and council member - a wise elder in the business of knowledge rather than fighting. He only faced dooku and sidious because there was nobody else around who could even come close to a hope to win those duels.
You also don't seem to realize that maneuvering your opponent into a vulnerable position is part of being a better opponent. Sidious led Yoda into the senet chambers and he set himself up in the better position. There is also no such thing as luck in Star Wars. Something that many people forget. Yoda lost his saber before the fall. It was Sidious lightning that caused Yoda to lose his saber. He blasted it from his hands. Sidious may not be 800 years old but he was an old man too.

Also my analysis was only an explanation to the main evidence of Sidious being more powerful.. Leland Chee said so. Leland Chee is second only to Lucas. Leland Chee said Sidious is more powerful. The novelization said Sidious was more powerful. Not to mention, considering the EU is Canon, even if Yoda did beat Sidious then what? Sidious switches to a younger body in it's physical prime I.E. Dark Empire and destroys Yoda anyway?

LordMerrick's Avatar


LordMerrick
01.01.2012 , 06:45 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
You also don't seem to realize that maneuvering your opponent into a vulnerable position is part of being a better opponent. Sidious led Yoda into the senet chambers and he set himself up in the better position. There is also no such thing as luck in Star Wars.

Sidious switches to a younger body in it's physical prime I.E. Dark Empire and destroys Yoda anyway?
Some of this stuff I have no idea what youre talking about. Sidious was a body snatcher? Capable of switching his soul to different bodies? Must be something in the book......which I havent read.

So if its written canonical law that sidious is more powerful....obviously I cannot in anyway argue with what was written...unless in the story, what was said was the opinion of a story character basing his opinion on the fact that yoda lost the match, rather than fact being laid out by a narrator or narrative character. That all depends on context in a story i havent read.

But I do think you give sidious undue credit for manipulating yoda into the vulnerable position of standing on the wrong side of the senate chambers. I mean for all we know they only entered the chambers because sidious was still trying battle his way to an escape route..... after all he was ONLY battling at all because yoda wouldnt allow him to flee.....

and if I recall BOTH yoda and sidious where thrown backward and fell with equal force ....only sidious wasnt standing on the wrong edge of a cliff. Sidious could not have predicted that particular clash at that particular moment would result in them both falling, and given yoda's fighting style yoda was likely to have leaped and bounded to a different position a mere second later. Yoda does not stand still in one place.

If they were only standing on opposite sides when that particular clash occured.....they BOTH still would have been thrown backward but yoda would have ended up (by pure chance and accident) ..... with the high ground and sidious would have fallen down the cliff. That is why it seems sidious gained the upper hand by luck alone.

Vecke's Avatar


Vecke
01.01.2012 , 07:50 PM | #58
The battle between Yoda and Palpatine can't answer who was more powerful because it wasn't a battle of individual power. It was a battle between two opposing forces (pardon the pun).

The Jedi had grown soft. They had spent a thousand years training other Jedi to defend against droids and blasters and criminals. The Jedi had assumed the Sith were extinct and were completely unprepared for the type of threat the Sith brought, both physically and psychologically.

Yoda may very well have been more powerful than Palpatine, but he was ill-prepared for the type of threat Palpatine brought. He was ill-prepared for the impact the Sith had on the force and ill-prepared to face an opponent that had mastered the force as a tool of destruction.

He was ill-prepared because the Jedi had grown complacent and overconfident. They had trained to face a thousand different types of enemies, but the one enemy they weren't prepared for was the Sith. The Sith, on the other hand, had trained for generations, preparing for a battle against one enemy - the Jedi.

So that fight wasn't about Yoda's power or Palpatine's power.

It was bigger than both of them. It was about two ways of life. One that had grown fat and lazy, another that was hungry and ambitious.

No matter how powerful Yoda was, he didn't stand a chance, because his way of life had outlived its usefulness.

Anakin - and later, Luke - would be the ones to help the Jedi evolve into something that could survive in the new galaxy, thereby bringing balance to the force.

Just my opinion.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.02.2012 , 12:42 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by LordMerrick View Post
Some of this stuff I have no idea what youre talking about. Sidious was a body snatcher? Capable of switching his soul to different bodies? Must be something in the book......which I havent read.

So if its written canonical law that sidious is more powerful....obviously I cannot in anyway argue with what was written...unless in the story, what was said was the opinion of a story character basing his opinion on the fact that yoda lost the match, rather than fact being laid out by a narrator or narrative character. That all depends on context in a story i havent read.

But I do think you give sidious undue credit for manipulating yoda into the vulnerable position of standing on the wrong side of the senate chambers. I mean for all we know they only entered the chambers because sidious was still trying battle his way to an escape route..... after all he was ONLY battling at all because yoda wouldnt allow him to flee.....

and if I recall BOTH yoda and sidious where thrown backward and fell with equal force ....only sidious wasnt standing on the wrong edge of a cliff. Sidious could not have predicted that particular clash at that particular moment would result in them both falling, and given yoda's fighting style yoda was likely to have leaped and bounded to a different position a mere second later. Yoda does not stand still in one place.

If they were only standing on opposite sides when that particular clash occured.....they BOTH still would have been thrown backward but yoda would have ended up (by pure chance and accident) ..... with the high ground and sidious would have fallen down the cliff. That is why it seems sidious gained the upper hand by luck alone.
There is no luck in Star Wars. There is no chance. There is the force. When a Jedi and Sith fight there's NO LUCK.

This is stated in the new hope. "From my experience there is no such thing as luck."

Yoda's words "Do or do not. There is no try." Yoda went to stop Sidious. He couldn't. He lost. Sidious wanted to rush to his new apprentice aid who he sensed was in danger. He succeeded. He wasn't running from Yoda. He was trying to get to Anakin. That was his goal.

As for the above. It's from the comics. Which are Canon. You obviously don't read the EU. You are also debating with me about something Leland Chee clarified and he's second only to Lucas. There is no debate. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Period. There is no discussion. The novelizations outright states Yoda reached an epiphany that he could not win. He never could. The Jedi have been training to defeat the Sith of the past whereas the Sith have been preparing for the Jedi of the future. There was never any chance. Even though they were both thrown backwards.. Sidious still had his weapon. Yoda did not. Sidious had already disarmed him. On equal footing Sidious would have got up and leaped over to Yoda and killed him.

Part of battling is to put your enemy in a vulnerable position. It's much like saying Obi Wan Kenobi lucked out in his battle with Anakin with the high ground. No, that would subtract from Obi Wan's victory. Leland Chee was hired to be in charge of continuity. What he says pretty much comes from Lucas himself. He oversees what Lucas cannot. If Leland Chee says Sidious was born on planet Rudolph. Then Sidious is born on planet Rudolph. To me what he says makes sense as well. Both the novel and he put Sidious above Yoda. Re-watching the scene it makes sense.

Leland Chee is no character.

Furthermore. Out of character sources call Sidious the most powerful. If you read the novels or Dark Empire. You'd know that after Sidious death he transfers his essence spiritually into clone bodies he's prepared for that moment. He then is stopped by Luke, Leia, Han, and a few others. He also is capable, in these younger bodies in their physical prime, to utilize powerful force storms capable of ripping apart starfleets. Even if Yoda somehow managed to win. Even if he did. Then what? Sidious transfers to a younger body and obliterates him.

Jochteas's Avatar


Jochteas
01.17.2012 , 06:17 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
No. Yoda was trying to kill Sidious. That was the mission. He was supposed to destroy Sidious whereas Obi Wan was supposed to destroy Anakin. Proof is that when he said he couldn't. He told Yoda he couldn't do it and Yoda said he's no longer the apprentice he knew. The force was unbalanced from Sidious alone. Sidious was so powerful that the dark side was clouding everything. It was his power alone that was doing it. Windu's duel with Sidious was long. You forget it cuts off and goes to another scene. It wasn't quick and it's confirmed in Canon windu would have died anyway. Windu defeated Sidious in saber combat. Note Yoda has been known to tie Windu. So Windu = Yoda usually and considering he tapped into Vaapad further than he ever has before that would put Windu above Yoda in saber combat.

Note that while you point out there are other factors it doesn't change that Sidious didn't look happy in his duel with Mace. He seemed frustrated and worried. He seemed to be having FUN fighting Yoda. Not to mention it's been confirmed. Leland Chee has stated Sidious proved too powerful. Therefore, Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. You can claim Yoda was in his prime a few hundred years ago but we don't know this. While he was old he could still tap into the force and allow himself to move acrobatically. Through age often comes wisdom and learning of new techniques.

It's why even in life old masters have defeated younger students. While the younger students are quicker, more fit, stronger, and more agile it's the knowledge and experience that allowed the Veteran to win out.
Did you even watch the movie? Yoda was trying to apprehend/capture him not kill him. Mace Windu fight was short, maybe 3 minutes tops, and the cut away scene picked up the fight directly where it left of. The Balance of the force given order 66 was completely thrown off the darkside users where completely empowered by the events of that day, not some super Sidious power font or what not.. Sidious in that moment sure might been able to out duel Yoda, but Yoda in general is the much more powerful Jedi.