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Mastery or Power for massive damage in WZ.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Mastery or Power for massive damage in WZ.

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
07.12.2017 , 01:58 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Clever_Trevor, the person who took over Bant's work .
From my understanding the person "who took over Bant's work", is Multicam aka vicodin. The guy who uses Bant's program to pump out PvE numbers and post them on forums. lol
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

snave's Avatar


snave
07.12.2017 , 02:07 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
I didn't say Alacrity is bad, I just personally don't feel it's that great for DPS upkeep in PvP.
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
I think stacking Alacrity non a non-healer is probably one of the worst things you can do in PvP.
I mean, kinda looks like you're saying it's bad.

As always, I recommend trying out various builds for yourself. Augments aren't expensive and you can do a lot of tinkering just through those.

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
07.12.2017 , 02:26 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
I mean, kinda looks like you're saying it's bad.

As always, I recommend trying out various builds for yourself. Augments aren't expensive and you can do a lot of tinkering just through those.
You nit-pick my post picking out two sentences and don't even read my argument for why it's not effective as players might think. You are free to build yourself like the PvEr's do but pretending that Alacrity has the same DPS output in PvP as it does in PvE is questionable at best if you have an understanding how Alacrity functions. In my opinion building yourself in PvP like you are going to parse on a dummy in a reg match with no context with how diversity environment like PvP is absurd.

No one is going around waving the "alacrity is dead' flag. Alacrity continues to be the second best DPS gain in PvP and PvE in the most optimal setting but you can NOT expect get the most optimal setting in PvP. That is why I build my argument about running less Alacrity and more Mastery to make up for the ineffectiveness of Alacrity when being CC chained/rooted/stunned/LoSed etc.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

sumquy's Avatar


sumquy
07.12.2017 , 02:26 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
After testing high alac vs high bonus damage (via mastery) the DPS output was virtually identical. Clever_Trevor, the person who took over Bant's work suggested a high alac build to me and it works pretty well. As always I'd recommend you try it out before regurgitating AlAc iS a DeAd StAt.

Trevor was meant to be working on a more thorough breakdown for me with the combat logs I sent him but iirc he said he was busy with IRL for a while so I'm still waiting for the final breakdown.
ummm. i think you got it backwards. i was the one in favor of using alacrity. "high" is a relative term, but 10-12% is easily obtainable with the default piece, one implant and a couple of augs. i'm not sure how well it scales beyond that. the second part of my first post specifically pointed out that for the most part, worrying about it is pointless, since the differences are very small.

Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
The only stat that doesn't translate well into PvP from PvE is Alacrity because of how uniquely it works. What is the likely-hood that you are going to string 7 GCDs together to actually make a new GCD in PvP? With all the CC, roots, stuns, push-backs, teleports, LoS and sticking to melee range, the likely-hood that you are even using Alacrity to it's full effect to be BETTER than Mastery in my opinion is probably poor.

I didn't say Alacrity is bad, I just personally don't feel it's that great for DPS upkeep in PvP.
i string 7 globals together without getting stunned/interrupted more often than not. probably has a lot to do with i play ranged classes and only rarely melee, but there it is. the more relevant issue is that we have so much mastery and power already, just about anything else becomes more effective.
...how i learned to love the dot and other short stories.

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
07.12.2017 , 02:30 PM | #15
I am playing with 8440 masteery, 4140 power and 2000 crit. I don't know but I am criting so much that I kinda win a lot of duels 1vs1 in warzones. Of course in ranked it's a different matter because people there are better defenders but in regs they just melt away. or it seems that way.

Crits are high and very frequent.

And in long fights you need alacrity because the longer it takes the slower your abilies will regen and at some point you gonna find yourelf with everythinkin CD which is annoying and u have to use basic attack.

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
07.12.2017 , 02:32 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by sumquy View Post
ummm. i think you got it backwards. i was the one in favor of using alacrity. "high" is a relative term, but 10-12% is easily obtainable with the default piece, one implant and a couple of augs. i'm not sure how well it scales beyond that.



i string 7 globals together without getting stunned/interrupted more often than not. probably has a lot to do with i play ranged classes and only rarely melee, but there it is. the more relevant issue is that we have so much mastery and power already, just about anything else becomes more effective.
I agree it's more beneficial for range because they don't have to deal with the constant melee range issue. According to Multicam, the best thing you can do for a DPS increase is to get more stats/gear. Once your min/maxed the amount of dps you can gain from rearranging your gear is like 2.5%~ lol. For try-hards it's important but in the end building correctly after you have 248 will make little difference. I personality just don't want to put all my eggs in the Alacrity basket and hope I don't get CC chained or rooted where I can't do any DPS. Better to run less and have more confidence in raw damage to get the 2.5% more DPS that I want.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

snave's Avatar


snave
07.12.2017 , 03:39 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
You nit-pick my post picking out two sentences and don't even read my argument for why it's not effective as players might think. .
It's not nit picking, you literally say it's one of the worst things you can do then you 180 noscope on it.

I understand how alacrity works, I was running a roughly 5% alac build before the 1800 rating was suggested to me and the only reason I tried the 1800 build was that I thought it was so stupid I could just easily show that person they were wrong with some trial games.

My damage went up, by a noticeable amount so I stuck with it. The parses sent over were mainly from arena games rather than regs but the TLDR conclusion I came to was they both perform relatively similarly and really personal preference is the main factor when deciding.

The highest performing dps Operative in our guild is running about 16% alacrity at the moment and there are more running 11% plus while getting positive outcomes. I'd recommend giving it a try, I mean, not on a spreadsheet.

:sigh:

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
07.12.2017 , 03:59 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
It's not nit picking, you literally say it's one of the worst things you can do then you 180 noscope on it.

I understand how alacrity works, I was running a roughly 5% alac build before the 1800 rating was suggested to me and the only reason I tried the 1800 build was that I thought it was so stupid I could just easily show that person they were wrong with some trial games.

My damage went up, by a noticeable amount so I stuck with it. The parses sent over were mainly from arena games rather than regs but the TLDR conclusion I came to was they both perform relatively similarly and really personal preference is the main factor when deciding.

The highest performing dps Operative in our guild is running about 16% alacrity at the moment and there are more running 11% plus while getting positive outcomes. I'd recommend giving it a try, I mean, not on a spreadsheet.

:sigh:
I tested alacrity on some classes: hatred sin, decep sin, anni mara, carnage mara, fury mara. These are the only classes i play in this game.

My experience is that 1500 alac or more is mandatory for DoT specs. As a fury mara or decep sin, I didn't really like it. But I agree, high alacrity will serve you well and operative is one of the classes that benefit a lot from it.

What I want to say is that in my point of view the class and spec your playing will determine the amount of alacrity you will need for optimal performance.

teclado's Avatar


teclado
07.12.2017 , 04:15 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
My experience is that 1500 alac or more is mandatory for DoT specs.
I don't think I've ever tried that, but I want to. Anni / Watchman should be fun. The only downside to getting used to that much alac is that if you ever go lower, everything just feels so slow.
SS
Malovo - Marauder

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
07.12.2017 , 04:30 PM | #20
You really need to stop looking at Alacrity in the larger picture, because that really only works for PvE.

In PvP, going for Alacrity means 2 things;

Lower Cooldowns/Higher Cooldown Frequency (which includes CC).
Increased outgoing ability rate.

The first provides you with the means to take more control over your fights.
As well as offensive capacities being more readily available.

The second is really just the increased speed at which you cast abilities. They do less damage but they go out faster.
Where you first had to wait untill 1.5 seconds before you could cast your second ability, you now do that at 1.3 seconds instead. This can make all the difference when fights are really tight. You really don't do less damage with Alacrity builds, you just make your burst window much more compact.

Down the line, yes.. Power/Mastery/whatever builds would go higher into the hard numbers.
But that is only after the entire sequence is done for both builds.
However when Alacrity is long done bursting, Mastery/Power still has to go through a global.

Compare it like a dragrace between a Car and a Bike if you will. Mastery is the Car. Alacrity is the Bike.
The Bike will win in the short run, the Car will catch up and eventually surpass but only after the Bike has already ridden it's race. You can choose to pick the Car for it's top speed, but I'm more of a surgical player so I prefer the agility and acceleration of a Bike.


TL;DR
It is entirely feasible to roll Alacrity into DPS builds in PvP. As a matter of fact, I HIGHLY recommend it.
But going for Alacrity is more demanding of the player. It requires you to make good use of the time it gives you.
If you spend time thinking what you want to do while you can already use another ability, then Alacrity speeding the whole thing up even more won't do you any good.
Evolixe | Exilove
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