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GSF Discussion: Friction Points

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
GSF Discussion: Friction Points
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TW-Cool's Avatar


TW-Cool
07.13.2017 , 05:01 PM | #271
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
GSF is not ground PvP, and the systems that govern one do not automatically fit the other. Fully upgraded GSF ships are not akin to ground PvP gear. No form of bolster system is necessary, from a competitive standpoint or a game-design one.

...

The Fleet Requisition given is enough to buy every ship in your hangar that you don't start with (excluding Cartel variants which have no gameplay difference from their analogues in your hangar)... or you can spend it on upgrading any particular ship you choose. It can get a single ship directly into competitive shape, and only requires that you play one single GSF match (win or lose) to complete the quest.

Investing a little time into understanding which upgrades are key ones to get and playing a handful of matches will have your ship(s) in good shape very quickly. It is quite a lot faster of a process now than it has ever been. There is no appreciable grind.

...
Okay, but I would still like a GSF bolster system. Whether they made it faster to upgrade now... there still isnt an answer as to which upgrade to go with first. Do I want better weapons or shields, or whatever? I'm assuming they want us to just guess and trial and error it? (I dont know the names of the stuff, since I deleted my one GSF toon, that did like 20 matches when it first came out to re-roll the class for Dark vs Light last year lol.)

In ground PVP, expertise used to boost multiple things as you earned more PVP gear (DPS, healing, damage reduction), so the bolster system took care of that before, giving people a decent amount of expertise (unless they were over geared PVE people...). I guess I want the bolster system in place mainly just so that I dont need to think about upgrading my ship stats, if I choose to not focus on those details.

I know GSF is a "learn to play", and I guess I'll agree with others saying that we need a PVE learning environment where we can practice shooting at ships, not on a rail.

May I ask what is the best average all around ship to play? I used to just upgrade my gun ship when I played 3 years ago.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
07.13.2017 , 05:53 PM | #272
Quote: Originally Posted by TW-Cool View Post
Okay, but I would still like a GSF bolster system. Whether they made it faster to upgrade now... there still isnt an answer as to which upgrade to go with first.
In fact there is an answer to that. That is a topic that has been extensively discussed for two years of a static game-state, so as much as anything in a game forum is debate-proof, there is broad consensus on that subject.

The certainty of what to upgrade and what to avoid is indeed so thoroughly documented and understood that it is indirectly the subject of considerable debate in the Ship Balance thread, simply because certain components work well, and certain components are very much underpowered, and a lot of us would like to see more diversity of viable builds.

A very short summary:

Strike Fighters are not good. Avoid them. Nearly everyone wants them buffed, and you can read literally hundreds of pages of posts about that if you are a glutton for theorycrafting or just like inflicting pain on yourself. They are a deathtrap for beginners, and not much more than that for experienced players.

Scouts...
  • Make one of your first upgrades buying a new Primary Weapon. Light Laser Cannon and Rapid Fire Lasers are both bad. For the Type 1 and Type 3 Scouts, Laser Cannon is a great all-around performer. For the Type 2 Scout, you should choose between Burst Laser Cannon and Quad Laser Cannons. BLC is like a laser shotgun that often takes people some time to get used to but is very powerful once you do. QLC does a lot of damage if you keep your target centered.
  • Another key early upgrade is deciding which engine maneuver you want to use, and getting the first upgrade level on it, making it cost less Engine Power. Choose between Barrel Roll, Power Dive, and Retro Thrusters. The first two will get you out of trouble (though a poorly aimed Power Dive will put you right back in trouble) and Retros are for more offensive-minded builds.
  • Upgrading Minor Components (your Reactor, Armor, Capacitor, Magazine) early is a smart choice, as they are cheap to upgrade and cost very little comparatively. Don't bother upgrading Sensors until the very last thing you do, as they are largely useless. I recommend Large Reactor (for lots of shield pool), any of the Capacitors can be a good choice, and on Scouts, definitely get Lightweight Armor and upgrade that early for the passive Evasion it grants.

Gunships...
  • Don't bother with the Type 2 Gunship, or its Fortress Shield, unless you like dying and being largely ineffective.
  • For the Type 1 Gunship, you want to get a few things early...
    • Slug Railgun to tier 3, so you can quickly kill turrets and do damage to Charged Plating Bombers
    • First and second upgrades on Barrel Roll to get out of trouble
    • Regeneration Extender so your railguns charge more rapidly between shots
    • Ion Railgun to tier 4 for Area of Effect damage
    • Buy Burst Laser Cannon instead of Light Laser Cannon for superior close-range damage dealing.
  • For the Type 3 Gunship, things are probably a bit more open to personal choice
    • Slug Railgun to tier 3, so you can quickly kill turrets and do damage to Charged Plating Bombers
    • Get the engine component you like most and its first upgrade level
    • The first level upgrade on Cluster Missiles is very strong as it reduces the lock time
    • Minor components are always good to upgrade early.

I'll leave Bomber recommendations for someone else, though please consider running Hyperspace Beacon on your Type 1 Bomber, as it is so vital in Domination matches.

Quote: Originally Posted by TW-Cool View Post
May I ask what is the best average all around ship to play? I used to just upgrade my gun ship when I played 3 years ago.
Type 2 Scout (Sting / Flashfire) will take some practice for you to learn, and you'll blow up a lot, but it has great capacity to deal damage and be mobile.

Type 1 Gunship is very good at team support with its Ion Railgun once you have the Area of Effect Damage upgrade. It will put out a lot of damage at range, and can hold its own in close if you are defending a node.

Type 3 Gunship has a great distance weapon (Slug Railgun), great close range weapon options (Cluster Missiles, BLC) and great Engine component options (Power Dive, Retros). It does not offer Ion Railgun, though, which is essential for combating Bombers and removing their mines.

If you like shooting things, these are the ships you probably ought to consider first.

- Despon

TW-Cool's Avatar


TW-Cool
07.13.2017 , 07:05 PM | #273
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
If you like shooting things, these are the ships you probably ought to consider first.

- Despon
Thanks for the detailed reply! Now whenever the queues get more popular and start popping again, I might just have to go back in there.

Graygorij's Avatar


Graygorij
07.15.2017 , 07:04 AM | #274
The learning curve is steep since it is really its own game. Also, I play swtor mostly with a keyboard and a little bit on the mouse -- but GSF feels really mouse intensive to me... to the point where my mouse hand cramps up.

GSF has always looked really cool and fun to me -- but I have never bothered to get into it due to those two issues.

Drakkolich's Avatar


Drakkolich
07.15.2017 , 04:10 PM | #275
First off I wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to ask us our feedback on the game, it gives us hope that you're looking to improve it and if you do plan to improve it please keep us informed and if you plan to make adjustments to Ships/Components please do so gradually and not all at once!

I think one of the biggest challenges is trying to explain to a new player why he's doing so little damage or why he's dying so fast. I do a lot of teaching to try to get new players up to speed and while the UI does convey a lot of great information there are some things that can be just so frustrating for new players.

- 1: Evasion or Missing do to accuracy. This one comes up so much when I'm teaching, they always tell me "I have the cursor over him but I never seem to do any damage, how do I aim better". It's pretty hard to tell if that player is talking about his own manual aim or if he's missing because of high tracking penalty reductions and/or evasion. I think one of the best things you could do to help the new player learning curve is to add in somekind of text that pops up when you actually manually hit the target but lose the evasion/accuracy roll. Something like Miss for accuracy shots or Evade for shots that lost to Evasion, if tracking both those is too much to ask then simply a Miss for everything that isn't just you shooting into space.

-2 : How did I die? Often players complain that they "got 1 shot" when in fact it's usually a combination of many attacks/abilities hitting all at once. If there was anyway to communicate to the player what attacks/players did to them to make them blowup that could tremendously useful. While I know this would be an entire new feature I just thought I'd bring it up here anyways.

-3: A place to teach/Practice. I'm sure you've noticed this one is probably one of the number 1 requests out there. For me it would let me teach new pilots how all of these systems work 1 by 1 in a no stress environment. Some kind of tutorial space that more then one player could enter would be huge for teaching purposes, however even just the ability to enter the current tutorial space (minus the pop ups/timer) with the ship of your choice could be a great starting point. That way I could talk them through their abilities and aiming on the ship they want to play.


From here I'll just talk a few friction points for me.

- I would love an actual number for my shield and health totals during the game. Not know exactly where my health is really urks me. If I knew that I was one Slug railgun away from dying because of Shield penetration I'd definitely play differently however that is really hard to know under the current UI. Shield numbers would also really help know just how much your shields are regenerating and/or your abilities are helping. It's currently super hard to figure out how the power setting affect shield regenerating abilities.

- Debuffs/buffs on enemy ships your targeting. Often if a ship is far away and you target it you don't get any information on their buffs/debuffs, this is incredibly annoying. Knowing a Gunship has Distortion field active or the Wing man copilot ability absolutely change the decision your going to make and how to engage that target. As a quick aside to this point, being able to make the icons on your UI for both your buffs/debuffs and your opponents bigger would be a nice quality of life adjustment too!

- Nowhere in the hangar does it tell you what the power settings actually do. I think with how important those settings are the game they should definitely be somewhere. My suggestion would be that in the window where you would normally hit the Queue button it displays all of your ships stats. It would be really cool if at the top there was a little toggle to show your ships stats in each power setting. So you could see exactly what your max shields might be in power to shields or how much engine power you'd regenerate in power to engines.


Well I think that's enough for now, Thanks again and I hope to keep hearing from you guys!
DrakolichDrakolích
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evilisgood's Avatar


evilisgood
07.15.2017 , 04:34 PM | #276
Learning curve is terrible for most people, as difference between stock and upgraded ships multiply skill gap between players. U might watch all the tutorial, have the optimal crew, but a stock ship is simply outclasses by fully upgraded one. I dont mean some bs about veterans doing well in stock ships - yes youll do well against noobs, but your stock ship will be useless against a player of same skill in fully upped ship.

Biggest things for me are scouts bursting people in under a second and gunships 2 shotting, Bombers are fine, as gunships clear drones/mines with ease, theyre slow and cumbersome. Strikes are just mediocre. The only change I'd make for components is either lowering or removing armor penetration as a passive, there is no reason why entire components should be redundant just because of that. Its like giving carnage mara gore as a passive, its just dumb. make it a buff or crew skill, but dont make it a passive that works 100% of the time.

With lower TTK people will actually get a chance to try and escape, rather than being killed instantly with no chance to do anything. If any ship is too strong/weak, hulls/sheilds can be adjusted. But let us build DR, and not feel like *******es casue a scout can just ignore 100% of our defences.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
07.15.2017 , 04:58 PM | #277
Quote: Originally Posted by evilisgood View Post
I dont mean some bs about veterans doing well in stock ships - yes youll do well against noobs, but your stock ship will be useless against a player of same skill in fully upped ship.
First, not really. Second, the point isn't that upgrades mean nothing- they mean something- but that the skill gap is vastly (10x or more) greater than the gear gap. If you are a new player getting worked by a veteran pilot and your ship is unupgraded, you didn't lose because of the gear.

Anyway the devs pretty much made everything upgrade wildly fast anyway.


Quote:
The only change I'd make for components is either lowering or removing armor penetration as a passive
You'd need to redo the entire meta because you wouldn't be able to leave charged plating as it is. That could happen, but it is a sweeping change.

Quote:
With lower TTK people will actually get a chance to try and escape
I definitely notice that there's a gap where newer players will ask for higher TTK (you meant higher, not lower), and veterans generally don't want that. I think a big piece here is that an experienced pilot spends a lot less time, relative to a new pilot, tanking damage instead of flying evasively.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

catsi's Avatar


catsi
07.17.2017 , 11:54 AM | #278
Id like to add in specific commentary regarding the tutorial

We need an active immersive tutorial in this game. I know it would be a lot of resources but it would be worth it. The tutorial should include the following.

A step by step guide to each ship Starting with each T1 version the tutorial guides players step by step through the ships components and functions and how tos on their weapons.

A sandbox area with both stationary and mobile targets, as well as obstacles and return fire.

A mini mission to take a sat and defend it, as well as a mini mission to get 5-10 kills in a TDM first before the enemy team does.

A version of the minio sandbox useful for 1v1 dueling where both pilots can communicate to each other in a short TDM freefor all area, or a brief king of the hill scenario.

the last one would be most useful for people who like to teach such as myself or Despon or Drakolich, and would provide the ability to give feedback in game.

its a difficult prospect right now for an experienced pilot to give in match feedback when were flying our respective rear ends off to achieve the match goals. we can only usually do it after the match is over.

Also I'm coming to the point that the GSF channel should be standard Op procedure and automatically on when the character is first created.
Ana Tathis 70 JK, Serraphin 70 COM/VG, Naashasa 70 Sage, Calliann, 70 GS, Kae'ra 70JK, Phyera 70 Sage
Rhea-hawk 70 PT, Gaa'ra 70 Mara, Fio'on 70 AS/Sorc , Mirri'elle 70 OP, Narayssa 70 Jug

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
07.17.2017 , 05:37 PM | #279
Quote: Originally Posted by catsi View Post
Also I'm coming to the point that the GSF channel should be standard Op procedure and automatically on when the character is first created.
This is a pretty brilliant obvious point.

The people who don't seriously needed the /GSF chat channel are already in it, and have largely migrated to the GSF Discord server.

The people who could seriously benefit from being in /GSF, mostly don't know it exists.

Making it one of the default in game channels would be good on the whole. You'd get more trolls, but the newbs would have a much more obvious place to fish for help from other players. I mean, there are pilots who spam a cjoin /GSF message at the start of matches pretty regularly as a public service, but it'd be nice if they didn't have to.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Verain's Avatar


Verain
07.17.2017 , 06:17 PM | #280
Server wide channels don't exist at character creation. If that's going to change, it shouldn't start with /gsf.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."