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5.0 crafting


psandak's Avatar


psandak
10.30.2016 , 11:01 AM | #11
Kazz_Devlin,

It has dawned on me that what you want is something that all the MMOs I have ever played - save SWG - simply do not provide.

First let me state, that I am not still in school. I have been playing MMOs for 17 years.

In the MMOs I have played, all (except SWG) have had crafting systems where everyone crafts the same stuff. Furthermore, that stuff got/gets placed into some sort of interface (ALA GTN) where the buyer and seller do not know each other from Adam.

And you're right, crafters should see more than just being self-sufficient; they should see money making potential in crafting. But what differentiates buyers and sellers is quite simple: sellers are willing to invest play time to develop their characters' crafting skills. Sellers see the money making potential at the end of the tunnel, buyers either do not see that potential or do not care enough about it to want to do anything about it. This is why undifferentiated crafting systems are still good money makers: there are far more "buyers" than "sellers"; a crafting system does not have to have unique stuff to be extremely profitable. However, it does require a quantity over quality mentality:
  • quantity: produce a lot of stuff for low cost to sell for overall lower value, but is in extremely high demand so one sells a lot of them even with competition
  • quality: produce fewer high cost items to sell for overall higher value, but demand is more limited for several reasons (knowledge that said item exists in the first place, the lack of supply, the price to acquire the item), but there is limited competition so those who do want it have to come to you to get it.

And I have experienced the notoriety you crave, not from crafting but from providing a service: long story short, when I played EverQuest (EQ1) total strangers whom I buffed in the past would ask me to buff them again. The point being that these players and I met (in game) face-to-face and I provided a service for them. In SWG, one's notoriety for crafting special items came from face-to-face engagement. I gain that notoriety within my circle of friends and guildmates, they know that if they need something crafted I can usually provide it, but outside that circle not so much. Once in a very long while I will receive a whisper saying, "I bought X from you a while back, can you craft me some more?"

Lastly, SWG had "classes" totally dedicated to crafting (yes I know SWG was a classless system; but if one did not invest everything into crafting skills (and specific crafting skills at that) then one would never be able to produce those unique items). A sandbox MMO can support that. A themepark MMO (like SWTOR) cannot.
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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
10.30.2016 , 11:36 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post

Lastly, SWG had "classes" totally dedicated to crafting (yes I know SWG was a classless system; but if one did not invest everything into crafting skills (and specific crafting skills at that) then one would never be able to produce those unique items). A sandbox MMO can support that. A themepark MMO (like SWTOR) cannot.

Going to disagree on this last point. A themepark could do a little more on crafting if they wanted.

Example: Instead of making us buy the dyes for the outfits have the outfits crafted and provide a color wheel that you could apply the colors to it. Oh I know that would take away the need for a cartel shop since the crafters would be making the outfits but honesty that would make more sense except BW would not be benefiting from people spending money.

The same could be done with the furniture needed. It could be done but it would have had to be done at launch. I don't mind the companions getting the materials but I do miss the way I could craft outfits in a color I choose and not one that was chosen by the company and the fact most of the nice outfits are cartel shop only.
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eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.30.2016 , 01:38 PM | #13
Just so we're clear, there are *no* unique items in mmos (or computer games in general). There are a fixed number of possible items (Nc). Each item has a fixed number of variables. Each of these variables has a fixed number of values. It's pretty easy (although somewhat messy in ASCII) to figure out this number.

Games may differ in how craftable items are parameterized, but crafters can only make what the devs allow. Games may differ in how many possible items there are (even at a 100% RE chance, if Borderlans 2 had crafting, I wouldn't want to try to get every schematic, lol). Even in swtor, I never bothered to get *every* possible schematic.

And that brings me to the next point -- even within the system, not all items are equally desirable. Regardless of how customizable a game is, players will focus on what is perceived to be BiS (Best in Slot), which offer little stat variation for BiS (and swtor now has less variation than at launch).

Furthermore, consider what is available -- the vast majority of craftable items in swtor are stat-based -- most "art" (graphics, sounds, etc.) are obtained in-game or through the CM. If BW allowed anything near BiS stats to be soid in the CM, there would be (valid) complaints about P2Win from many more players than complain about the variety in crafting, so them keeping a near monopoly on aesthetic items is acceptable to me.

And this goes to psandak's point (with which I agree 100%): Crafting is not Art. Crafting is about making things, and swtor's crafting system simply focuses on making *useful* things (i.e., things with stats) over aesthetically different things. Swtor has reduced the number of stats (and removed choice from the player skill trees) to make the game simpler to understand (and balance) [snide: although many would argue that the devs are still having problems with the current complexity], so there just isn't that much variation. But there are still some schematics that players have to work to obtain, and there is *enough* variability that not every crafter easily learns every schematic, so crafters can still distinguish themselves (monetarily, at least) by the choices of what they learn.

While this may not seem that "non-fiscally rewarding" as a solo player, if you are in a guild, you'll notice that not *everybody* has every craft maxed BiS, and while the GTN may be anonymous, dedicated crafters are (or at least in the guilds I've been in) usually popular.
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Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
10.30.2016 , 01:46 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post
Kazz_Devlin,

It has dawned on me that what you want is something that all the MMOs I have ever played - save SWG - simply do not provide.

First let me state, that I am not still in school. I have been playing MMOs for 17 years.

In the MMOs I have played, all (except SWG) have had crafting systems where everyone crafts the same stuff. Furthermore, that stuff got/gets placed into some sort of interface (ALA GTN) where the buyer and seller do not know each other from Adam.

And you're right, crafters should see more than just being self-sufficient; they should see money making potential in crafting. But what differentiates buyers and sellers is quite simple: sellers are willing to invest play time to develop their characters' crafting skills. Sellers see the money making potential at the end of the tunnel, buyers either do not see that potential or do not care enough about it to want to do anything about it. This is why undifferentiated crafting systems are still good money makers: there are far more "buyers" than "sellers"; a crafting system does not have to have unique stuff to be extremely profitable. However, it does require a quantity over quality mentality:
  • quantity: produce a lot of stuff for low cost to sell for overall lower value, but is in extremely high demand so one sells a lot of them even with competition
  • quality: produce fewer high cost items to sell for overall higher value, but demand is more limited for several reasons (knowledge that said item exists in the first place, the lack of supply, the price to acquire the item), but there is limited competition so those who do want it have to come to you to get it.

And I have experienced the notoriety you crave, not from crafting but from providing a service: long story short, when I played EverQuest (EQ1) total strangers whom I buffed in the past would ask me to buff them again. The point being that these players and I met (in game) face-to-face and I provided a service for them. In SWG, one's notoriety for crafting special items came from face-to-face engagement. I gain that notoriety within my circle of friends and guildmates, they know that if they need something crafted I can usually provide it, but outside that circle not so much. Once in a very long while I will receive a whisper saying, "I bought X from you a while back, can you craft me some more?"

Lastly, SWG had "classes" totally dedicated to crafting (yes I know SWG was a classless system; but if one did not invest everything into crafting skills (and specific crafting skills at that) then one would never be able to produce those unique items). A sandbox MMO can support that. A themepark MMO (like SWTOR) cannot.
Well i have to disagree a bit because there were people that excelled at crafting on our server back in the day mainly because he chose to invest in mining top ingredients he spent the capital he got in best crafting tools which yielded highest stats on gear for armor so if you pvp'd you wanted the very best for that ever so slight edge and were willing to pay for it. That alone created huge demand for his product. Yes, you are also correct in that you had to devote your profession into crafting but seeing as back in the day we had 2 or 3 alts anyways not a big deal. Since the devs don't want the players being able to improve upon stats the only aspect players could improve upon is appearance i.e. allow player base to alter or changes appearance of armor, weapons , furniture could very well lead to A.) Some armor and weapons that are not god awfully butt ugly and hideous looking. B.) natural competition which would encourage even more unique and innovative items. How you'd implement it haven't given that much thought however, my original point still stands and by your own admission a sandbox MMO can support it and a theme park cannot. Thus SWTOR cannot by it's very nature have a true crafting system only a replication system in which every player produces cookie cutter items that don't distinguish themselves in anyway other than the fact that one is chooses to place theirs on the GTN cheaper than the others on the GTN. It was a Gimmick, it is a gimmick designed to entice those that played sandbox MMO's.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.30.2016 , 01:56 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
Example: Instead of making us buy the dyes for the outfits have the outfits crafted and provide a color wheel that you could apply the colors to it. Oh I know that would take away the need for a cartel shop since the crafters would be making the outfits but honesty that would make more sense except BW would not be benefiting from people spending money.

The same could be done with the furniture needed. It could be done but it would have had to be done at launch. I don't mind the companions getting the materials but I do miss the way I could craft outfits in a color I choose and not one that was chosen by the company and the fact most of the nice outfits are cartel shop only.
Well, the selection of outfits at launch was pretty low, especially modifiable gear, so even if a color wheel had been available, it wouldn't have been spectacular (especially only being able to modify two of the channels like we have now).

And that wouldn't take away the need for a cartel shop -- the cartel shop was introduced as a way to keep the game alive because of low sub rate. While many people (including me) were disappointed at the lack of customization, that's not the main reason subs were "below expectations". So if BW couldn't sell cosmetics (since you'd like them available in game), they'd have to sell stats -- i.e., go P2W. If you look at the backlash any time BW introduces anything looking like it smells like P2W (Grade 7 ship gear, Shroud Cubes, etc.), you'd realize that that wouldn't have worked quite as well.

Finally, this is an mmo, so there are plenty of performance factors to consider. In a standalone game, modding the art files doesn't [usually] have much of an impact on performance. Assuming my art files sizes are the same size (resolution, etc.), my computer won't know the difference. But in an mmo, where my computer has to display everybody around me, limiting the number of models and variants (dye channels) reduces the possible number of additional textures my computer has to handle (and color would be part of this). Furthermore, the larger the number of parameters, the more client/server communications needed to send that information. And BW's modified Hero Engine isn't noted for high performance (depending on implementation, many possible technical issues could be reduced).

Just sayin.
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Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
10.30.2016 , 01:57 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
Going to disagree on this last point. A themepark could do a little more on crafting if they wanted.

Example: Instead of making us buy the dyes for the outfits have the outfits crafted and provide a color wheel that you could apply the colors to it. Oh I know that would take away the need for a cartel shop since the crafters would be making the outfits but honesty that would make more sense except BW would not be benefiting from people spending money.

The same could be done with the furniture needed. It could be done but it would have had to be done at launch. I don't mind the companions getting the materials but I do miss the way I could craft outfits in a color I choose and not one that was chosen by the company and the fact most of the nice outfits are cartel shop only.
And really this is the point that I am making SWTOR has said they didn't want player base being able to make the stats okay fine then let us CRAFT the appearance or the way things look.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.30.2016 , 01:58 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Kazz_Devlin View Post
...he got in best crafting tools which yielded highest stats on gear for armor so if you pvp'd you wanted the very best for that ever so slight edge and were willing to pay for it. That alone created huge demand for his product.
That alone is an excellent argument for *not* implementing such a system.
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Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
10.30.2016 , 02:01 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
Well, the selection of outfits at launch was pretty low, especially modifiable gear, so even if a color wheel had been available, it wouldn't have been spectacular (especially only being able to modify two of the channels like we have now).

And that wouldn't take away the need for a cartel shop -- the cartel shop was introduced as a way to keep the game alive because of low sub rate. While many people (including me) were disappointed at the lack of customization, that's not the main reason subs were "below expectations". So if BW couldn't sell cosmetics (since you'd like them available in game), they'd have to sell stats -- i.e., go P2W. If you look at the backlash any time BW introduces anything looking like it smells like P2W (Grade 7 ship gear, Shroud Cubes, etc.), you'd realize that that wouldn't have worked quite as well.

Finally, this is an mmo, so there are plenty of performance factors to consider. In a standalone game, modding the art files doesn't [usually] have much of an impact on performance. Assuming my art files sizes are the same size (resolution, etc.), my computer won't know the difference. But in an mmo, where my computer has to display everybody around me, limiting the number of models and variants (dye channels) reduces the possible number of additional textures my computer has to handle (and color would be part of this). Furthermore, the larger the number of parameters, the more client/server communications needed to send that information. And BW's modified Hero Engine isn't noted for high performance (depending on implementation, many possible technical issues could be reduced).

Just sayin.
Okay i will cede the point here this does make some sense. However, even if it was just simple minor mods it would still be a vast improvement and might even still be worth it.

Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
10.30.2016 , 02:02 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
That alone is an excellent argument for *not* implementing such a system.
I already mentioned the fact that that was a different system and bioware from the start said they were not going down this path. For the record though the crafting Stats that were done in SWG was like armor, Resists such as Fire/ acid/ cold probably not what your thinking.

dirose's Avatar


dirose
11.04.2016 , 10:33 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by -Bob- View Post
I didnt see the Dev stream on 5.0 and i haven't found anything so far about the crafting for 5.0 but i'm assuming, That Augments and Kits are going to have a new level as well as the rest of the crew skills.
Can anyone confirm this or point to a link that talks about it?
I saw in the threadon crafting they said there would be MK-10 augment kits and so on.

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
There will be a new level of augments, MK-10, which will be taught by a trainer.

-eric
My biggest concern was whether or not my materials I've been collecting are going to be any good or not. Hope this helps and answers your question.