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Pooled hatred/Gather strength - Vengeance/Vigilance bug NEW explanation!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Pooled hatred/Gather strength - Vengeance/Vigilance bug NEW explanation!

DerSchneider's Avatar


DerSchneider
06.13.2016 , 07:26 PM | #1
Hello, fellow juggs, guardians, community members.
I am Nightrain from The Red Eclipse and TOFN, and today I will try to explain why actually one of the most important jugg/guard's utilities is bugged. I apologize for grammar mistakes, English is not my native language.

Some time ago my guild mate already raised a topic about this. A link to previous thread.

Why is it important?
During the last PVP season I found out that many jugg/guardian players underperform, because this class becomes less and less viable for ranked pvp. One of the reasons - current PVP meta, overflooded with roots, slows and offhealing. This is why completely close-ranged and sustained vengeance/vigilance spec is not the best choice for arenas at the moment. (Actually, same for Rage/Focus, but it's a different topic). However, Juggernaut/Guardian has the potential to increase it's damage while being focused, by Pooled Hatred/Gather Strength utility. It works perfectly in Immortal and Rage (Defense and Focus) specs, but it is disaster for Veng/Vigi.
Spoiler


I will mainly use Juggernaut terminology.
Again, the issue is that stacks of Pooled hatred - Gather Strength in Vengeance/Vigilance discipline (hereafter - PH/GS, stacks etc. ) are getting consumed by Shatter/Plasma brand's DoT ticks.
Our previous argument sounded like this: Eviscerate and Draining scream DoTs don't consume stacks, that's why Shatter dots also should not consume them, because these 3 abilities work in similar way.
In contrary, people said that shatter works in it's own way. Draining scream is the separate effect from Force scream, Eviscerate is the separate effect from Impale. Shatter is a single ability, thus DoTs should consume stacks.

Now I will try to explain why the last point of view is NOT correct.

The tooltip of the PH/GS says:
Whenever your movement is impaired, you gain a 10% damage bonus to your next ability that consumes rage. This effect can stack up to 5 times and lasts 15 seconds.

Firstly, the tooltip says "THE NEXT ABILITY". If shatter's initial hit and dots are the one ability - then the damage of BOTH initial hit and dots should be increased by a number of stacks that you have AT THE MOMENT of usage.
All stacks gained after usage should NOT be consumed, because you already applied DoT effect, you do it only once - at the moment of initial strike.

Secondly, some of you might say - TECHNICALLY (if we look into parse), shatter is actually TWO abilities.
Here is my combat log of using Shatter ability on dummy:

Spoiler


There you can see two effects: Shatter (initial hit) and Shatter: Bleeding (Shatter) (DoTs).

Let's compare this to Impale and it's DoT Eviscerate:

Spoiler


As you can see, Impale and Eviscerate work exactly in the same manner. They just have different names.

This brings us to a point. Eviscerate: Bleeding (Eviscerate) is another effect, DOES NOT CONSUME rage, and because of this SHOULD NOT and DOES NOT consume stacks.
But if Shatter: Bleeding (Shatter) is also another effect, then why it DOES consume stacks???

Based on this little research I think I proved that in both cases PH/GS is bugged.
I propose two solutions, for first case and for second:

In the first case PH/GS stacks should be consumed by Shatter's initial hit and take effect on it's dots TOO.
All stacks acquired AFTER initial hit should NOT be consumed.
I like this variant more.

In the second case, since DoTs are the separate effect, they don't consume rage and they should NOT consume stacks. Again, all stacks received after initial hit should be kept for another ability. It is also acceptable.

Any thoughts? Criticism? Please post it.
Would be really good to have some dev reaction to this issue.
Nightrain - top 3 Juggernaut season 7, 8, 9

My PVP streams: https://www.twitch.tv/n1ghtrain

Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
06.14.2016 , 01:03 AM | #2
DoT's shouldn't consume stacks. Here's why:
Tooltip says "Whenever your movement is impaired, you gain a 10% damage bonus to your next ability that consumes rage. This effect can stack up to 5 times and lasts 15 seconds."

That's the whole bug in this: our dot's don't consume rage and they're not an ability. They are an effect applied by an ability, therefore shouldn't consume stacks, period.


Basically stacks should only be used up on shatter, impale and force scream, since everything else is free. Well, vicious throw if you don't use it with slaughter(why one would do that?)

Edit: Actually lol. You can write in the Forums for 7 days by using a ref link?

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.14.2016 , 06:12 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Torvai View Post
DoT's shouldn't consume stacks. Here's why:
Tooltip says "Whenever your movement is impaired, you gain a 10% damage bonus to your next ability that consumes rage. This effect can stack up to 5 times and lasts 15 seconds."

That's the whole bug in this: our dot's don't consume rage and they're not an ability. They are an effect applied by an ability, therefore shouldn't consume stacks, period.


Basically stacks should only be used up on shatter, impale and force scream, since everything else is free. Well, vicious throw if you don't use it with slaughter(why one would do that?)

Edit: Actually lol. You can write in the Forums for 7 days by using a ref link?
I think buffed vicious throw and vengeful slam will still consume stacks.. Because they're considered rage consuming moves, otherwise neither of would refund rage through shien either.

AndoEyrune's Avatar


AndoEyrune
06.14.2016 , 06:32 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I think buffed vicious throw and vengeful slam will still consume stacks.. Because they're considered rage consuming moves, otherwise neither of would refund rage through shien either.
Iirc, slam doesnt consume stacks because unlike force sweep, it never consumed rage in the first place. I think you're correct about throw though.
Vendrine <LØS>

"I'm Done"
-Kytera 2016 (RIP)

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.14.2016 , 08:14 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by AndoEyrune View Post
Iirc, slam doesnt consume stacks because unlike force sweep, it never consumed rage in the first place. I think you're correct about throw though.
Technically speaking it originally consumes 3 rage, however you get the talent making it free before you get the actual ability.

petergohan's Avatar


petergohan
06.18.2016 , 02:51 AM | #6
i noticed this a couple months ago, and discussed it with guild mates that also run this spec, they sayed it's working as intended, but i know, i feel this is wrong, like you guys pointed. By the way we could have an increase in our blade dance/ravage damage in this spec, it's a part of the rotation, and have an instant refresh, but it's not that great.

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
06.30.2016 , 05:12 PM | #7
I think it is about time pooled hatred got fixed. :/

I wholeheartedly support entire Shatter's damage (dots+initial) to be affected by the amount of stacks at the time of casting.

DerSchneider's Avatar


DerSchneider
07.31.2016 , 05:28 PM | #8
bump because important
Nightrain - top 3 Juggernaut season 7, 8, 9

My PVP streams: https://www.twitch.tv/n1ghtrain

Ryuku-sama's Avatar


Ryuku-sama
08.16.2016 , 05:25 PM | #9
You all have it wrong. Pooled Hatred is consumed by any debuff dealing damage with the tag "sith_warrior.​rage_spender". This includes Shatter, Vicious Throw, Slam and, unfortunately, Shatter's DoT. Look on Jedipedia if you don't believe me.
"If it wasn't broken, we shall break it. If it is balanced, we shall beat it until slow and painful death follows. If it is overpowered, it is working as intended." - Bioware 2015

DerSchneider's Avatar


DerSchneider
08.16.2016 , 05:34 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryuku-sama View Post
You all have it wrong. Pooled Hatred is consumed by any debuff dealing damage with the tag "sith_warrior.​rage_spender". This includes Shatter, Vicious Throw, Slam and, unfortunately, Shatter's DoT. Look on Jedipedia if you don't believe me.
The thing is, slam doesn't consume rage. I mean, yes, there is a perk called effluence or something, that makes smash/slam consume no rage. But in case of smash it can consume rage (before you get the perk). Vengeful slam cannot consume rage under any circumstance. Shatter of course does consume rage. Impale consumes rage. Force scream consumes rage. But only shatter works in it's own manner. If in swtor data shatter's dot is marked as rage consumer then it works wrong.
Nightrain - top 3 Juggernaut season 7, 8, 9

My PVP streams: https://www.twitch.tv/n1ghtrain