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Questions of Light and Dark

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Questions of Light and Dark

DeltaBos's Avatar


DeltaBos
05.05.2016 , 04:00 PM | #11
Jedi and Sith light and dark are just labels. This game gets it pretty accurate that the force isn't inherently good or evil, it's how each individual uses the force that defines THEM. The force itself has a will, for there to be balance between those who use it for good or evil, but these labels do not apply to the force itself. Hope that cleared things up.
Query: Is there someone that you need killed master?

Audoucet's Avatar


Audoucet
05.05.2016 , 05:27 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DeltaBos View Post
Jedi and Sith light and dark are just labels. This game gets it pretty accurate that the force isn't inherently good or evil, it's how each individual uses the force that defines THEM. The force itself has a will, for there to be balance between those who use it for good or evil, but these labels do not apply to the force itself. Hope that cleared things up.
@ OP : I already addressed DeltaBos' affirmations, if you want to see both our arguments, you can look it up here.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...878511&page=11

Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
05.05.2016 , 05:39 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
Isn't just TOR where this happens. Both Kyle Katarn. and Jaden Korr could freely use darkside abilities without embracing the dark side. Katarn would go so far as to say that techniques are not inherently dark or light, and all that mattered was how they were used.
I always thought he notion that certain abilities were inherently dark or light was somewhat silly. Why should force choke for example be inherently evil (it was described as dark side in some EU sources) when it is potentially even a non-lethal way to incapacitate someone? Luke Skywalker choking the Gamorrean guard for example prevented him from having to kill someone who would have used force to prevent him from seeing Jabba / rescuing his friends. The way it was used should make it a light side act.

DeltaBos's Avatar


DeltaBos
05.05.2016 , 06:54 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aeneas_Falco View Post
I always thought he notion that certain abilities were inherently dark or light was somewhat silly. Why should force choke for example be inherently evil (it was described as dark side in some EU sources) when it is potentially even a non-lethal way to incapacitate someone? Luke Skywalker choking the Gamorrean guard for example prevented him from having to kill someone who would have used force to prevent him from seeing Jabba / rescuing his friends. The way it was used should make it a light side act.
*insert THANK YOU GIF here*

In some games they can't even decide if an ability is Jedi or Sith ability. In KotoR mind trick is a Sith ability but it's considered a "light alignment" ability in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. People seem to think that the force, a cosmic presence that binds the galaxy together, has the moral concept of an infant. The force is not aligned to anyone or anything, it's the people who use it that choose "light or dark," believing that the force takes sides in their petty philosophical quarrels.
Query: Is there someone that you need killed master?

SaveTheMonkeys's Avatar


SaveTheMonkeys
05.05.2016 , 08:32 PM | #15
I always thought a force-user had to use anger/rage to fuel something like force-lightning, and it is the act of using the force through anger/rage that makes it bad, not the manifestation of the force power itself. You can make a pretty plausible argument that tearing boulders out of the ground and throwing them at your enemies is at least as nasty as a bit of lightning.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
05.06.2016 , 07:46 AM | #16
I also always assumed that "dark side" and "light side" are more of a matter of state of mind than actual abilities. When you use the light side, you have to be calm and free from strong emotions, and you view the Force as an ally, not a servant. When you use the dark side, you use the power of your emotions and pretty much enslave the Force to do your bidding. The curious thing is, that if this is the case, then there could be a morally good dark side user (who uses the Force on dark side state of mind but would rather not murder people left and right ). Morally evil light side user could be more complicated, as I've understood that the Force isn't fan of murdering people for no good reason (so even if you were delusional enough to think Force choking people to death is a good thing even when you're calm and free of emotion, the Force might refuse to do that?).

Anyway, the light/dark aligments here are more of a gameplay feature than an actual way to show if your character is using the light side or the dark side. Though, with "you can be a dark side user and a jedi"-thing, I'd say that anyone who is a member of the Jedi Order is technically a jedi, and since your PC does not get kicked out for using the dark side...
There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me.
Darth Malgus - And some alts on Satele Shan and Star Forge - The Firslay Legacy
referral link http://www.swtor.com/r/J24zRp

Analyst's Avatar


Analyst
05.06.2016 , 07:46 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by SaveTheMonkeys View Post
I always thought a force-user had to use anger/rage to fuel something like force-lightning
Interesting enough, you often do not even need these emotions. Many Sith in-game do not really show great anger, unless they follow the example of movieBanner and are simply always angry inside.
I must - so I can.

There's nothing better in a man, than knowledge, and there's nothing worse, than ignorance (Alfred the Great)

Audoucet's Avatar


Audoucet
05.06.2016 , 07:58 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Seireeni View Post
I also always assumed that "dark side" and "light side" are more of a matter of state of mind than actual abilities. When you use the light side, you have to be calm and free from strong emotions, and you view the Force as an ally, not a servant. When you use the dark side, you use the power of your emotions and pretty much enslave the Force to do your bidding. The curious thing is, that if this is the case, then there could be a morally good dark side user (who uses the Force on dark side state of mind but would rather not murder people left and right ). Morally evil light side user could be more complicated, as I've understood that the Force isn't fan of murdering people for no good reason (so even if you were delusional enough to think Force choking people to death is a good thing even when you're calm and free of emotion, the Force might refuse to do that?).
If you watch the movies and TV shows, and if you listen to Lucas, what you're saying isn't an assumption, it's just the obvious fact, it's even litteraly said by everybody.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
05.06.2016 , 08:03 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Audoucet View Post
If you watch the movies and TV shows, and if you listen to Lucas, what you're saying isn't an assumption, it's just the obvious fact, it's even litteraly said by everybody.
Quote: Originally Posted by Audoucet View Post
It's way easier to use the dark side, but it makes you crazy in time. So Jedi reject it. Siths embrace it.

You yourself seem to disagree with the part of a dark side user being able to be morally good (or at least "not completely psychopathic").
There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me.
Darth Malgus - And some alts on Satele Shan and Star Forge - The Firslay Legacy
referral link http://www.swtor.com/r/J24zRp

Audoucet's Avatar


Audoucet
05.06.2016 , 08:07 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Aeneas_Falco View Post
I always thought he notion that certain abilities were inherently dark or light was somewhat silly. Why should force choke for example be inherently evil (it was described as dark side in some EU sources) when it is potentially even a non-lethal way to incapacitate someone? Luke Skywalker choking the Gamorrean guard for example prevented him from having to kill someone who would have used force to prevent him from seeing Jabba / rescuing his friends. The way it was used should make it a light side act.
What the character is doing isn't important, what is important is how he obtained the power. Luke wasn't angry. He used the force to incapacitate enemies, and he accessed the Force through peace, calm and serenity, as you can see and hear in the movies.

If you take the prequel, you can see Anakin killing in cold blood, in two occasions. The sand people, and Dooku. But he succumbed to the Dark Side on the first occasion, not the second one, he was calm, and in control, when killing Dooku. He just did because he was ordered to. That's an example of two identical acts, but not both using the dark side.