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Questions of Light and Dark

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Questions of Light and Dark

TheAresian's Avatar


TheAresian
05.01.2016 , 06:25 AM | #1
One of the things I've wondered about since I started playing the game is the nature of light and dark in the force. I feel like the game treats light and dark as states of being rather than philosophies. For instance, even the darkest, most evil Jedi is still seen as a Jedi, which is considered a light side character. Sith, while once a species, is now considered to be any dark side force user.

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )

Diviciacus's Avatar


Diviciacus
05.01.2016 , 08:51 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by TheAresian View Post
One of the things I've wondered about since I started playing the game is the nature of light and dark in the force. I feel like the game treats light and dark as states of being rather than philosophies. For instance, even the darkest, most evil Jedi is still seen as a Jedi, which is considered a light side character. Sith, while once a species, is now considered to be any dark side force user.

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )
The Jedi/Sith duality is mostly gameplay limitations (you can't go be Sith and join the Empire if you're a DS Jedi, for instance).

From a lore standpoint, not all LS Force users are Jedi, and not all DS Force users are Sith. Not all Force users are even LS or DS, either - the Voss and Zakuul are pretty grey (if you ignore their bat-**** crazy leadership). Being a Sith or being a Jedi is largely alignment-based, but there's also life philosophy to consider. This is why Kylo Ren isn't a Sith - he has a lot of DS knowledge and training, but it wasn't done as apprentice to a Sith lord so he necessarily can't be a Sith.
Nonne mei fratres congruitis nobis nostram cruore ferroque humum recipienda esse aut Imperium Aeternum quae omnia speremus peregerimusque vere perdat?
Conquering the Darkest Places, the ongoing misadventures of a Sith doing what's right by her.

Nefand's Avatar


Nefand
05.01.2016 , 09:11 AM | #3
IMO Sith and Jedi are just orders of Force users. Tython's quest line hints that there have been different Force-using orders in the galaxy history; they seem to come and go with charismatic leaders or particularly chaotic eras. They have always seemed comparable to monastic sects to me.

The Sith and Jedi orders may simply be the ones which have withstood the test of time, though clearly the structures of each order change dramatically in the time between Old Republic and New Republic. Within the game's context, the PC gets lumped into one category or the other but I think that is a limitation of the storytelling medium rather than a hard rule of Sith=DS, Jedi=LS.

A Force user is a force user; the individual may have an affinity to dark or light, or may obtain mastery of both, and certainly the sect they belong to has an influence on the philosophy and styles the force user is exposed to. But IMO, it is definitely a dynamic system with an awful lot of variation.

SIgmaSilver's Avatar


SIgmaSilver
05.04.2016 , 03:54 AM | #4
From what I understand, falling to the dark side does not necessarily make you a Sith. A Sith is a dark side force user who accepts certain teachings, observes certain rituals, as well as aligning themselves to a certain historical legacy. Dark jedi lack the cultural background to be considered Sith. In a later era, after the Rule Of Two is instituted, Sith would often use Dark Jedi as pawns. A common way for a Sith Master to gain the loyalty of a Dark Jedi is stringing them along with promises of accepting them as their Apprentice.

Audoucet's Avatar


Audoucet
05.04.2016 , 11:12 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by TheAresian View Post
One of the things I've wondered about since I started playing the game is the nature of light and dark in the force. I feel like the game treats light and dark as states of being rather than philosophies. For instance, even the darkest, most evil Jedi is still seen as a Jedi, which is considered a light side character. Sith, while once a species, is now considered to be any dark side force user.

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )
Bioware never respected the actual nature of the Dark Side. So essentially in SWTOR, dark light don't exist and it's on the point of view and different clothes.

So in SWTOR, you can get a dark Jedi because of it's okay, you can kill and torture, and use anger, and still be nice.

In the official universe, it's different. You can access the light side only by calm, patience, and self-control. You can access the dark side using strong emotions like anger and hate. It's way easier to use the dark side, but it makes you crazy in time. So Jedi reject it. Siths embrace it. But they are organisations before anything, so you don't become Sith just because you fell to the dark side. Even though most of the tiime it will be the case.

Still, there are other organisations, like the witches of Dathomir and the night sisters of Dathomir.

Now some people will jump at my post to say it's BS, because they don't like it. They want to do whatever they want without consequences, and they think it's possible in Star Wars just because they want it to. I won't argue with them because there's no point. They will bring up some examples from the extended universe which are not canonical and completely ignore the movies and the official TV shows. If you want too listen to them you can. If you want the truth, well don't take my word for it, just look at the movies and TV shows.

But, Bioware agrees with them, so in SWTOR, it's true. Sometimes anyway, since the continuity sucks in TOR.

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
05.04.2016 , 11:22 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Audoucet View Post
Bioware never respected the actual nature of the Dark Side. So essentially in SWTOR, dark light don't exist and it's on the point of view and different clothes.

So in SWTOR, you can get a dark Jedi because of it's okay, you can kill and torture, and use anger, and still be nice.

In the official universe, it's different. You can access the light side only by calm, patience, and self-control. You can access the dark side using strong emotions like anger and hate. It's way easier to use the dark side, but it makes you crazy in time. So Jedi reject it. Siths embrace it. But they are organisations before anything, so you don't become Sith just because you fell to the dark side. Even though most of the tiime it will be the case.

Still, there are other organisations, like the witches of Dathomir and the night sisters of Dathomir.

Now some people will jump at my post to say it's BS, because they don't like it. They want to do whatever they want without consequences, and they think it's possible in Star Wars just because they want it to. I won't argue with them because there's no point. They will bring up some examples from the extended universe which are not canonical and completely ignore the movies and the official TV shows. If you want too listen to them you can. If you want the truth, well don't take my word for it, just look at the movies and TV shows.

But, Bioware agrees with them, so in SWTOR, it's true. Sometimes anyway, since the continuity sucks in TOR.
Isn't just TOR where this happens. Both Kyle Katarn. and Jaden Korr could freely use darkside abilities without embracing the dark side. Katarn would go so far as to say that techniques are not inherently dark or light, and all that mattered was how they were used.
Sieg Zeon !

Audoucet's Avatar


Audoucet
05.04.2016 , 03:07 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
Isn't just TOR where this happens. Both Kyle Katarn. and Jaden Korr could freely use darkside abilities without embracing the dark side. Katarn would go so far as to say that techniques are not inherently dark or light, and all that mattered was how they were used.
Yes I know, I already addressed that in my post.

Don't forget to mention that Kyle AND Jaden, just like Revan, are player characters, in RPG videogames.

I won't argue with you, you can consider them if you want, especially in the SWTOR context, but try to be objective when giving informations.

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
05.04.2016 , 06:24 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Audoucet View Post
Yes I know, I already addressed that in my post.

Don't forget to mention that Kyle AND Jaden, just like Revan, are player characters, in RPG videogames.

I won't argue with you, you can consider them if you want, especially in the SWTOR context, but try to be objective when giving informations.
I consider it to have transcended mere gameplay mechanics when Katarn directly references it in character.
Sieg Zeon !

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
05.05.2016 , 05:15 AM | #9
One way for them to blur this distinction between light and dark would be to change the Sage/Sorcerer mechanics to reflect the Light/Dark "meter" we have on our Characters.

So that whether you use Lightning or Projection is determined not by class, but by Light / Dark alignment.

So that a DS Jedi has Lighting, and a LS Sorcerer has Projection.

It would add a significant degree of immersion.

All The best
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Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
05.05.2016 , 03:55 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
I consider it to have transcended mere gameplay mechanics when Katarn directly references it in character.
Kyle has also struggled with the dark side, fallen victim to it a few times, and has suffered as a result. He always returns back to the light but Kyle isn't without his issues. Luke, the grandmaster of the order, and the main authority when it comes to the light and dark straight up tells his son that there is light and dark and no grey area.