I don't have any problems with the APG in general. Its a loss when the other team have all the sorcs and juggs, but most games are quite interesting with surprising results and close ones.

But the real single unfair advantage I've encountered is bubble squatting. As in oyu can do all the hard work, whittling down opponents on a node till you have one sorc and then they bubble. And you have to stare at them for 8 seconds, and then do it all again, or more likely help has arrived. While they are squatting on the node.

I would like to see it changed so force barrier is the same as stealthing out, you can't hold or claim the node the node. they can easily barrier for 3 seconds still and break. that's enough of an advantage.

Indeed my friend... Finally someone else noticed this. I read yesterday on the forum that sorc and sages have this ability because otherwise they would be easy kills. Well umm.. ok, but the problem here is that you worked hard to kill him and they cast the bubble and like you said, we stare at them for 5 or more seconds and they get health back in the meantime while they get healed by other healer or by the ability.. dunno if it heals too.

So In my view this ability needs some adjusments. that damage immunity for 5 or more seconds is a lot... and an unfair advantage.

After barrier they will most likely pop bubble (with flash stun), or their pushback.

They can also drop a PW, force speed away to avoid some damage them PW right back preventing cap.

Sorcs have a ridiculous advantage on this map.

I actually assumed bubble wasnt supposed to count to cap, i mean they drop balls/mods and other stuff in PvP if they bubble, why would this be allowed here?... are we certain of this? If so then yes it is absurd and a huge oversight.

They do count, they can hold mods, prevent cap, and hold the node.

They do count, they can hold mods, prevent cap, and hold the node.

yeah, thats a monumental oversight on the part of the devs to allow that. i hadnt noticed it.

They do count, they can hold mods, prevent cap, and hold the node.

Yep, which is retarded because Stealth classes and Marauders cannot use one of their primary DCDs while holding the mods, yet a Sorc can.

Ranged in general also has a huge advantage on this map, I'd like to see more LoS objects added INSIDE of the control points. It's stupid how a sorc, merc or sniper can just sit outside of the CP while a melee class is guarding and oftentimes the melee is powerless to stop them. The ranged class just needs to kill the guard (basically freecasting) and then run in to cap.

Yep, which is retarded because Stealth classes and Marauders cannot use one of their primary DCDs while holding the mods, yet a Sorc can.

 

Ranged in general also has a huge advantage on this map, I'd like to see more LoS objects added INSIDE of the control points. It's stupid how a sorc, merc or sniper can just sit outside of the CP while a melee class is guarding and oftentimes the melee is powerless to stop them. The ranged class just needs to kill the guard (basically freecasting) and then run in to cap.

Which is why I tend to just attack nodes and not defend them.

If I see a Jug I pass on a red node because I can't pull it off as a Mara, but Jugs and their 15 lives can pop it while I peel for them.

So what DCDs are fair on this map?

Is Entrench + Cover fair since that ensures that Snipers can use any battle mod without fail?

Is Enraged Defense fair in that it pretty much precludes killing the Juggernaut until the charges are expended?

Or Force Shroud?

This is a serious question. If the policy question around the OP's concern is that Force Barrier allows a Sorc to hold a node for 8 seconds (every 3 minutes) without there being anything that can be done, then what DCDs are legitimate on this map?

Yep, which is retarded because Stealth classes and Marauders cannot use one of their primary DCDs while holding the mods, yet a Sorc can.

However,

Assassins still have Force Shroud, Deflection, Overcharge Saber (Darkness), Blackout (Deception), Mass Mind Control (Hatred) & nothing stops them from using Force Cloak, they just need to reappear quickly.

Operatives still have Evasion, Shield Probe, Exfiltrate (DPS specs), & their heals

Marauders still have Saber Ward, Intimidating Roar, Cloak of Pain, & Undying Rage

Sorcs will still have their heals (counting Static Barrier as a heal).

So while you're correct that stealth and Marauders lose the full functionality of their vanish powers, it's not like any of the classes are helpless without them.

Ranged in general also has a huge advantage on this map, I'd like to see more LoS objects added INSIDE of the control points. It's stupid how a sorc, merc or sniper can just sit outside of the CP while a melee class is guarding and oftentimes the melee is powerless to stop them. The ranged class just needs to kill the guard (basically freecasting) and then run in to cap.

But isn't that part of the strategy of this map? You're supposed to be a sitting duck to keep control. Unlike many other games where you have to defend a node, this isn't nearly as boring as the other games most times.

So what DCDs are fair on this map?

 

Is Entrench + Cover fair since that ensures that Snipers can use any battle mod without fail?

 

Is Enraged Defense fair in that it pretty much precludes killing the Juggernaut until the charges are expended?

 

Or Force Shroud?

 

This is a serious question. If the policy question around the OP's concern is that Force Barrier allows a Sorc to hold a node for 8 seconds (every 3 minutes) without there being anything that can be done, then what DCDs are legitimate on this map?

Entrench allows snipers to cast mods, but that's it. You can still kill the sniper while he's guarding.

Enraged defenses is fine, just push/pull and mezz/cc the jugg... You can still cap just fine if he has it up.

Force shroud does nothing to prevent a cap (unless you're a sorc). 5 seconds of force/tech immunity is nothing most classes can't deal with. Yes, some classes (sorcs/ops) will have trouble with it, but there's nothing special here.

The problem with bubble is that it's the "F*** you, I'm out" ability that has no direct counter, but more than that it affects objective play. No other ability comes even close to that.

Edit: also, 8 seconds is only assuming that the sorc is out/dead after bubble ends... What actually happens is that they will heal up (assuming they don't have the H2F utility), bubble themselves and basically hold out for another 8-∞ seconds (depending on the opposition). Give me another CD that can occupy a full team for as long as bubble.

So what DCDs are fair on this map?

 

Is Entrench + Cover fair since that ensures that Snipers can use any battle mod without fail?

 

Is Enraged Defense fair in that it pretty much precludes killing the Juggernaut until the charges are expended?

 

Or Force Shroud?

 

This is a serious question. If the policy question around the OP's concern is that Force Barrier allows a Sorc to hold a node for 8 seconds (every 3 minutes) without there being anything that can be done, then what DCDs are legitimate on this map?

Every DCD can be dealt with and countered on this map, except Barrier.

You can pop it with mods, you can pop it and still hold the node, it has no direct counter and it can be used stunned.

You always defend sorcs and sages, because obviously you play one, but they are overtunned as **** and something needs to be done about that cheesy class.

You always defend sorcs and sages, because obviously you play one, but they are overtunned as **** and something needs to be done about that cheesy class.

Stop fighting it, and bow to your master class. The longer you resist it, the more painful the end will be.

Every DCD can be dealt with and countered on this map, except Barrier.

You can pop it with mods, you can pop it and still hold the node, it has no direct counter and it can be used stunned.

 

You always defend sorcs and sages, because obviously you play one, but they are overtunned as **** and something needs to be done about that cheesy class.

Actually, I defend Sorcs because you all have wildly unworkable ideas about what 'fixes' are needed. I have said for months that Sorc healers are overtunned. I have said that DoT Spread can go today so long as the ST is increased as Madness is abysmal in ST damage.

I have at least 2 of every class. Yes I play Sorcs, but I play everything else too. The incessant whining does get tiresome it is true. Most people suggest completely unreasonable nerfs that don't even get to the heart of the problem.

Let's take Force Barrier and OPG map. Anytime you're going to suggest something is unfair, you have the burden of showing that a power provides a benefit not available to other classes AND that benefit distorts play so much that it becomes a markedly better option than comparable options.

Does Force Barrier provide a benefit on this map? Yes, it does. It provides a window of immunity. This has a 4% uptime. You get 8 seconds every 180 seconds. Now do other classes have comparable benefits? Well that depends on what you mean by comparable. Granted, Sorcs are literally invincible in bubble. So just for the sake of argument, I'm going to say that there are no comparable options out there. That's gets us half-way there.

Although it's not only Sorcs that have benefits shared by no one. Remember, Sniper have an advantage with a base 33% uptime that provides an incredible advantage on this map not available to other classes. If a Sniper goes into a node with a red cancellation mod, there is no way to stop them unless you can kill the Sniper in 2 GCDs. And that's assuming they don't pop Evasion. Let's come back to Evasion in a minute.

Now the next thing we have to ask is whether bubble is distorting this game. Well, we don't have anything but anecdotal evidence which is subject to this forum's incredible confirmation bias. But if Force Barrier provides this monumental advantage then we should see Sorcerers as a necessity to win this map. Which is nonsense. I've been playing one of my Shadows for the last week or so and I see little effect of Force Barrier on wins. This map requires coordination, a bit of luck and understanding the rules of the game. But, since I'm arguing for the proposition that the status quo is fine, you bear the burden of showing why you're right. So where's your evidence.

P.S. Now I wanted to go back to Evasion for a second. Evasion provides 200% ranged and melee defense for 3 seconds, meaning you can't get hit by white damage at all. Hold Position the Sniper passive, adds 75% Force/Tech (i.e. yellow) damage reduction to that. OK, so that's something less than full immunity, but it might as well be since you aren't going to kill the Sniper during that unless they have 1-5% health. And they can still shoot you.

And what of Undying Rage, 99% damage reduction for up to 4-6 seconds? Sure you can still KB the Marauder, but other than that they get near immunity for one-half to three-quarters of the time Barrier is in place and they can fight you during it.

So with these two powers I find myself wondering if Force Barrier is really so overwhelming an advantage on this map. It's better than the two above options in that it's longer and certain. But it's weaker in that it has less uptime than Evasion and no ability to act unlike both Evasion and Undying Rage.

But now you'll come up with some reasons why neither of these powers are any problem at all and it's only Sorcerers that need to be nerfed. So let's hear it.

The main difference between Barrier and other DCDs is that Sorcs also have the strongest self heals in the game.

Madness and Healers can outlast 3 dps bashing them after barrier, that is enough for the team to reinforce that node.

Sorcs can also delay then by using bubble with the aoe stun, and healing to full again.

Mercs and Ops have self heals, but cannot survive the amount of DPS that sorcs can.

They have no "oh ****" button that allows them to take a break and reset the fight.

Ops can stealth out, but not with a mod. If they don't have a mod and stealth, I just maddash and force them out of stealth.

Snipers are easily killed in a node. A force choke or a well placed interrupt can delay that mod long enough to take it out.

The only classes that have a 100% chance of popping red mod are Sorcs, Jugs area close second.

EDIT:

I forgot to add that Sorcs have a stun immunity and damage for 5 seconds after barrier.

Either they cannot pop barrier when they have a mod or they lose the mod when they pop it, like in huttball.

This **** is getting out of hand.

Did you not read my post? Or is it just something to ignore because it's inconvenient?

In this map, the "acting" part is negligible when you control a node. You get no points for kills, and you literally only have to stay within a node for it to be controlled.

The 99% DR on GBtF is irrelevant as are the self heals on enraged defenses. Snipers have a niche role with entrench, but they sure as hell won't hold a node longer for it.

All DCDs offer either protection against damage or protection against movement impairing effects. Only barrier offers both, for longer than any of the other abilities. By the way, averaging DCDs is worthless. Or are you telling me that once every 3 minutes on the second you use barrier? Let's assume the sorc in question has the minimal intelligence to only barrier when guarding a node alone.

The ability is clearly not working as intended (not for the first time, either...) and if it is... Well, I have nothing more to say. Stop defending a broken mechanic.

Did you not read my post? Or is it just something to ignore because it's inconvenient?

 

In this map, the "acting" part is negligible when you control a node. You get no points for kills, and you literally only have to stay within a node for it to be controlled.

Yes, so what?

The 99% DR on GBtF is irrelevant as are the self heals on enraged defenses. Snipers have a niche role with entrench, but they sure as hell won't hold a node longer for it.

Why?

All DCDs offer either protection against damage or protection against movement impairing effects. Only barrier offers both, for longer than any of the other abilities. By the way, averaging DCDs is worthless. Or are you telling me that once every 3 minutes on the second you use barrier? Let's assume the sorc in question has the minimal intelligence to only barrier when guarding a node alone.

Actually, the 4% actually supports your argument because it is the maximum uptime. If, as you say, we should use the power only when necessary, then the uptime goes down, probably into the 1-2% range. Which makes it less overpowered.

And the fact that it protects against everything still doesn't answer the question, 'why is that a problem?'

The ability is clearly not working as intended (not for the first time, either...) and if it is... Well, I have nothing more to say. Stop defending a broken mechanic.

Why is it not working as intended? It's possible that is correct, but 'intended' is whatever the developers think it is, not you or me.

Look, you all refuse to argue the point. You just keep saying it is unfair. Barrier is a definite advantage. It gives you 8 seconds of defending a node. So what? What about that is problematic?

EDIT: What you seem to be saying is that Force Barrier is beneficial. Which we all knew. What I'm trying to understand is why is that 8 seconds of immunity so much worse than every other power in that protects players.

The main difference between Barrier and other DCDs is that Sorcs also have the strongest self heals in the game.

Madness and Healers can outlast 3 dps bashing them after barrier, that is enough for the team to reinforce that node.

Sorcs can also delay then by using bubble with the aoe stun, and healing to full again.

 

Mercs and Ops have self heals, but cannot survive the amount of DPS that sorcs can.

They have no "oh ****" button that allows them to take a break and reset the fight.

Ops can stealth out, but not with a mod. If they don't have a mod and stealth, I just maddash and force them out of stealth.

OK, but then we're talking about the class as a whole. The OP is about one power Force Barrier.

Snipers are easily killed in a node. A force choke or a well placed interrupt can delay that mod long enough to take it out.

Unless they are in Entrench (with its 33% uptime).

The only classes that have a 100% chance of popping red mod are Sorcs, Jugs area close second.

How's that work now? Are you saying battle mods can be USED in barrier? First I've heard of it.

EDIT:

I forgot to add that Sorcs have a stun immunity and damage for 5 seconds after barrier.

 

Either they cannot pop barrier when they have a mod or they lose the mod when they pop it, like in huttball.

This **** is getting out of hand.

Two things:

1) Enduring Bastion does not provide stun immunity. It provides interrupt immunity, but you can still use controls on the Sorcerer;

2) If all you're arguing is that Sorcerers should drop the battle mod, then I'll agree with that given how it works with the stealth classes and how it works in Huttball. But beyond that I don't think there is any thing else that should be done with barrier.

Barrier grants an additional 5 or so seconds of damage, stun, and interrupt immunity after it's not "active".

During this grace period the sorc can do whatever it wants, be it run, heal or use a battle mod.

It's a broken mechanic.

When you ask why does it matter it just seems like you main a Sorc, so there is no discussion to be had here.

EDIT:

A Sniper in entrench can be interrupted by being pushed back, they are only immune to CCs.

Sorcs after Barrier cannot be pushed, CCd, or interrupted.

To you this is "working as intended", because you main a Sorc/Sage and don't want to see your advantage or this meta end.

Barrier grants an additional 5 or so seconds of damage, stun, and interrupt immunity after it's not "active".

During this grace period the sorc can do whatever it wants, be it run, heal or use a battle mod.

No it doesn't. Why do you believe this to be true? Why should anyone take you seriously when you don't even understand the power you're complaining about.

Force Barrier has two major effects:

1) For up to 8 seconds, you have absolute immunity to damage and control effects.

2) During the channel of barrier, you build up charges of Enduring Bastion. Enduring Bastion provides an absorb shield that lasts up to 5 seconds. While Enduring Bastion is active, you have interrupt immunity. You do not gain stun immunity.

When you ask why does it matter it just seems like you main a Sorc, so there is no discussion to be had here.

That doesn't invalidate my argument. All you are suggesting is that I'm biased. We all have biases, you clearly do since you're suggesting things that aren't true.

No it doesn't. Why do you believe this to be true? Why should anyone take you seriously when you don't even understand the power you're complaining about.

 

Force Barrier has two major effects:

 

1) For up to 8 seconds, you have absolute immunity to damage and control effects.

 

2) During the channel of barrier, you build up charges of Enduring Bastion. Enduring Bastion provides an absorb shield that lasts up to 5 seconds. While Enduring Bastion is active, you have interrupt immunity. You do not gain stun immunity.

 

 

 

That doesn't invalidate my argument. All you are suggesting is that I'm biased. We all have biases, you clearly do since you're suggesting things that aren't true.

I understand the power, and yes it does happen.

They are fully mobile and immune to everything during that grace period.

A Sniper in entrench can be interrupted by being pushed back, they are only immune to CCs.

Sorcs after Barrier cannot be pushed, CCd, or interrupted.

To you this is "working as intended", because you main a Sorc/Sage and don't want to see your advantage or this meta end.

Neither of those statements are true.

What makes you believe that Sorcerers gain CC and physics immunity after Barrier?

Neither of those statements are true.

 

What makes you believe that Sorcerers gain CC and physics immunity after Barrier?

Experience.

After barrier they cannot be knocked back by anything nor interrupted.

They are also immune to damage.

During this time I have seen them use a red mod.

Games with 3 or more sages/sorcs are completely one sided. There is a reason why most people have a sorc these days.

I understand the power, and yes it does happen.

They are fully mobile and immune to everything during that grace period.

I'm sorry, but you just don't know what you're talking about.

Here, here's the patch notes for when Enduring Bastion was added:

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/482014/game-update-2.7-invasion

Sage

Force Barrier now has an additional effect. While protected by Force Barrier, charges build up and grant Enduring Bastion. Enduring Bastion is a shield that absorbs an amount of damage based off the charges (1-4) that are present when Force Barrier ends. Enduring Bastion also grants immunity to interrupt and lasts for 5 seconds after Force Barrier ends. Force Barrier now has an additional rank to train at level 55, so visit your trainer!

I'm sorry, but you just don't know what you're talking about.

 

Here, here's the patch notes for when Enduring Bastion was added:

 

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/482014/game-update-2.7-invasion

Nothing in that post negates what I said. After they pop Barrier they are free to use the mod uninterrupted.