It never felt right whenever someone would argue that Sidious was stronger than Vitiate, or Vader could beat The Wrath, and I could never figure out why, until it finally hit me.

There's no logical way Vader or Sideous could be as powerful as the strongest Sith in the OR (outside of the published fanfiction that was the novels at least, where Luke and Palpatine apparently became Dragonball Z characters).

Why?

Because no Sith is ever going to teach their apprentice everything they know for fear of the apprentice either becoming too powerful or thinking they no longer need their teacher anymore, so limited to only two, in every generation secrets would be forever lost. Or what if the teacher has an accident? Palpatine slips in the shower and suddenly two-thirds of all the sith teachings left in the galaxy are gone forever. Vader's smart, but he isn't a scholar, he's not going to spend decades rediscovering all that stuff with an empire to hold together and a son to look for.

The only way they would be stronger is "because the writers say so", but it doesn't work on a intuitive level because in real life the more people practice a craft the more innovation and diversity you see within the craft and the better chance of a true master of that craft emerging. Also, who would sith practice against if they were living in secret? Each-other? "Whoops! Sorry master, I totally mean to lop off your hand, how about I... AHHHH!" Sidious was supposed to be the greatest duelist of his age, but who did he train against? Plaugus? Then he'd only be a master against that one opponent (speaking from martial arts experience here).

I think the idea that the Rule of Two led to a greater level of raw power, fighting ability or whatever is kind of a red herring. What it did was force the Sith to be smarter. With such limited numbers they had to be careful and subtle, instead of just trying to solve problems by brute force - which always failed. Coupled with the stability it gave (Sith do not share power, so if two are ever to work together it must be with a rigid hierarchy), this allowed the Sith to achieve greater things with two expert infiltrators and manipulators than they ever could with a horde of bickering warriors convinced of their collective invincibility.

The bizarre "evolutionary" model the Sith have, where they attempt to grow stronger as a collective by having "the strong" kill "the weak", doesn't really work whether you have two Sith or thousands.

You forget and advantage that the Rule of Two has: all of the Dark Side's power concentrates in only 2 individual, that was the first reason why Bane created it. Preventing the infighting was only the second reason.

Also many times Sith Lords didnt learn all of their knowledge from their masters, but from holocrons they found.

In the end, the Rule of Two makes sense (although I dont like it myself, I think Krayt's Rule of One makes more sense)

You forget and advantage that the Rule of Two has: all of the Dark Side's power concentrates in only 2 individual, that was the first reason why Bane created it.

I've never been sure how literally true that could be. There were only two Sith under the Rule of Two but there were other Dark Side Force users: Nightsisters, Emperor's Hands, Inquisitors and suchlike. They weren't inducted into the secrets of the Sith but still had a share (if there is such a thing) of the power of the Dark Side.

This is just my take, but I always thought that that part of Bane's vision was more metaphorical. The power of the Sith is less diluted with two because they have fewer distractions from their common goal; they're not wasting resources on their own internal power struggles. And the power of secrecy is greatest when a minimum number of people know the secret.

You forget and advantage that the Rule of Two has: all of the Dark Side's power concentrates in only 2 individual, that was the first reason why Bane created it. Preventing the infighting was only the second reason.

Also many times Sith Lords didnt learn all of their knowledge from their masters, but from holocrons they found.

In the end, the Rule of Two makes sense (although I dont like it myself, I think Krayt's Rule of One makes more sense)

You've literally described the "Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu".

Is it easier to believe that there is a limited amount of magic life energy in the whole universe, or that the creators just didn't think all this through?

^ +1

You forget and advantage that the Rule of Two has: all of the Dark Side's power concentrates in only 2 individual, that was the first reason why Bane created it. Preventing the infighting was only the second reason.

I never had an impression that Bane meant it in a way that the more Force users there are the weaker they are, in his trilogy. Even when he compares the Dark Side to a poison. He doesn't stipulate such a thing in the Book of Sith either.

The Force, Dark Side included doesn't work that way.

The same idea can work in other contexts related to the subject, but when it comes to how powerful Sith is, this is not the case.

It never felt right whenever someone would argue that Sidious was stronger than Vitiate, or Vader could beat The Wrath, and I could never figure out why, until it finally hit me.

 

There's no logical way Vader or Sideous could be as powerful as the strongest Sith in the OR (outside of the published fanfiction that was the novels at least, where Luke and Palpatine apparently became Dragonball Z characters).

 

Why?

 

Because no Sith is ever going to teach their apprentice everything they know for fear of the apprentice either becoming too powerful or thinking they no longer need their teacher anymore, so limited to only two, in every generation secrets would be forever lost. Or what if the teacher has an accident? Palpatine slips in the shower and suddenly two-thirds of all the sith teachings left in the galaxy are gone forever. Vader's smart, but he isn't a scholar, he's not going to spend decades rediscovering all that stuff with an empire to hold together and a son to look for.

 

The only way they would be stronger is "because the writers say so", but it doesn't work on a intuitive level because in real life the more people practice a craft the more innovation and diversity you see within the craft and the better chance of a true master of that craft emerging. Also, who would sith practice against if they were living in secret? Each-other? "Whoops! Sorry master, I totally mean to lop off your hand, how about I... AHHHH!" Sidious was supposed to be the greatest duelist of his age, but who did he train against? Plaugus? Then he'd only be a master against that one opponent (speaking from martial arts experience here).

 

You're rather missing the point of the Banite Sith Order. If and when an apprentice becomes strong enough to slay their Master, the Master views it as a triumph, not a defeat.

You're rather missing the point of the Banite Sith Order. If and when an apprentice becomes strong enough to slay their Master, the Master views it as a triumph, not a defeat.

And if you poison and kill him in you sleep is that still a triumph? Also if you are trown in a reactor shaft by your apprentice and you kill him in the process is that still a triumph?

I think Darth Bane did not think very well at the rule of two and overlooked the other ways to kill your master like the ones mentioned.

The Sith in general don't make a lot of sense. Neither do the Jedi. The Force works because it's fun to think of space wizards wielding light swords in an eternal battle of good and evil. That was the real problem with midichlorians and other made up explanations in the prequels (like the rule of two).

The Force and its light and dark side orders don't really need further explanation than Yoda's crash course on Dagobah.

J.J. Abrams seemed to get this. That's why we don't have any long exposition about what the heck a "Knight of Ren" is, or what Kylo seemed to be the only one of them although he was the "Master".

And if you poison and kill him in you sleep is that still a triumph? Also if you are trown in a reactor shaft by your apprentice and you kill him in the process is that still a triumph?

I think Darth Bane did not think very well at the rule of two and overlooked the other ways to kill your master like the ones mentioned.

When Sidious poisoned his master, that was the system working. It's up to each Apprentice to use whatever skills he or she has available to become greater than the Master, and Palpatine's method is symbolic of how he went on to conquer the galaxy: by subtlety. It doesn't matter if the master has more notional Force power than the apprentice if he/she is not smart enough to use that power to best effect - and to know when not to use it at all.

Sidious' death was not a triumph because what Vader did was an act of self-sacrifice that has no place in Sith ideology. That was the ultimate failure of the Rule of Two... and yet, the Sith did not die out on that day, either.

I believe in legends continuity, whenever the Sith order was eradicated, some force ghost would simply hang out a few hundred years until another Jedi was bored with light side and thought 'Ooooh, unlimited powah. Sweet.', and would seek it out. Then they had a new Sith order.

That or a stash of Sith datacrons somewhere, yeah.

The rule of two is actually the best and most common approach of teaching resources allowing. Jedis also employed a rule of two as a master could only have one padawan at a time. Basically, it allows full focus of teaching to the padawan/apprentice.

Now the sith's rule of two goes to the extremes of having only one master and only one apprentice. For starters as someone mentioned earlier for a sith master to die from his apprentice was a triumph of sith philosophy. There were also various practical reasons for having just 2. There were no longer conflicts between the siths, other than the apprentice to kill the master, no two weaklings could challenge a master but it would take a single more powerful entity to do so, with being two they could avoid detection.

Lastly bear in mind that the rule of two implies that there can be only one darth and one apprentice, there is no mention for forbidding lower dark-side force users, for example Mara Jade, the Inquisitors, maybe some of the Imperial guards. it is just that they were not trained directly by the sith master or trained to very limited extends.

You're rather missing the point of the Banite Sith Order. If and when an apprentice becomes strong enough to slay their Master, the Master views it as a triumph, not a defeat.

Yeeeeeeeah, kinda having a hard time buying the most selfish, power-obsessed beings in the galaxy viewing it as a triumph when they are finally backstabbed.

"You... you've poisoned me! ARGH!!! My plan... is working... perfectly! HAHAHAAAAAACK!!!

*coughs, dies, and defecates post-mortis explosive diarrhea in his robes*

Not that any of that has anything to do with my point.

There's no way a master will ever teach his apprentice everything, so techniques, skills, and history will constantly be lost with successive generations of murder. It also doesn't address my point as to where Sith would train or practice those skills if they can't reveal themselves to the Jedi.

"Well now, I have spent my whole life training only against my master, who only ever trained against his master, so therefore I will surely be ready to face a Jedi who's skills and techniques may be nothing whatsoever like the one opponent I ever faced with a lightsaber! It's a good thing the writers dictate the plot because there's no way this s*** could ever logically work!"

Yeeeeeeeah, kinda having a hard time buying the most selfish, power-obsessed beings in the galaxy viewing it as a triumph when they are finally backstabbed.

 

"You... you've poisoned me! ARGH!!! My plan... is working... perfectly! HAHAHAAAAAACK!!!

*coughs, dies, and defecates post-mortis explosive diarrhea in his robes*

 

Not that any of that has anything to do with my point.

There's no way a master will ever teach his apprentice everything, so techniques, skills, and history will constantly be lost with successive generations of murder. It also doesn't address my point as to where Sith would train or practice those skills if they can't reveal themselves to the Jedi.

 

"Well now, I have spent my whole life training only against my master, who only ever trained against his master, so therefore I will surely be ready to face a Jedi who's skills and techniques may be nothing whatsoever like the one opponent I ever faced with a lightsaber! It's a good thing the writers dictate the plot because there's no way this s*** could ever logically work!"

Wrong. It is considered a triumph because the ultimate goal was the extinction of the Jedi. In the Book of the Sith, Darth Bane even states: "If you are not willing to accept the fact that your apprentice will kill you, you are already a wound in the Sith Order, and your contribution is not needed, and the Sith have suffered a fateful blow." In essence, the Sith knew that they were going to die, but they had to give the Apprentice no quarter what-so-ever. If the Master gets poisoned, that's their own fault, and the Apprentice outsmarted them, which was a big part of the Rule of Two.

On top of that, the Sith Master would teach the Apprentice, but not share the slightest bit of power, thus making the Apprentice work for it.

Also, why in the world is this a topic? The Rule of Two was better than any method before it, considering that in the lore it worked. When it comes to the Sith, no other Order comes close, I mean crap, even Darth Krayt's Rule of One had a betrayal by Wyyyrlok III.

Yeeeeeeeah, kinda having a hard time buying the most selfish, power-obsessed beings in the galaxy viewing it as a triumph when they are finally backstabbed.

Remember that Sith are not just people who use the Dark Side. They're people who believe, with a pseudo-religious conviction, in the Dark Side. They share a vision of a galaxy dominated by their ideology. They believe it is right for the strong to rule over the weak, to kill, torture and enslave as they see fit. They pursue the shared mission of the Sith even if it doesn't benefit them on an individual basis. Of course they try not to die - most probably hope to live forever, somehow - but they don't give up on their "sacred mission" even if doing so would strictly be in their best interest.

Now, I don't know if any given Sith is going to feel the same way as he/she is actually dying. But by then it's too late to change your mind.

"Well now, I have spent my whole life training only against my master, who only ever trained against his master, so therefore I will surely be ready to face a Jedi who's skills and techniques may be nothing whatsoever like the one opponent I ever faced with a lightsaber! It's a good thing the writers dictate the plot because there's no way this s*** could ever logically work!"

Although this is true it can also be said for the jedi: since they didn´t know the sith continued to exist they couldn´t have faced another lightsaber user in their life. With some luck they would have faced another jedi during training, but never to train for a battle to the death situation.

The sith, on the other hand, could study the jedi behind the scenes and train with their masters in battles to the death.

Although this is true it can also be said for the jedi: since they didn´t know the sith continued to exist they couldn´t have faced another lightsaber user in their life. With some luck they would have faced another jedi during training, but never to train for a battle to the death situation.

 

The sith, on the other hand, could study the jedi behind the scenes and train with their masters in battles to the death.

Gonna have to disagree hard, here. Jedi training never stops, and training sabers are a known thing, allowing them to go at it full tilt.

Not to mention having an order of thousands with access to the most up-to-date lessons in tactics, philosoply, martial arts, and survival means you will always be on top of your game.

It's not a frat where you get your papers and sit down for the rest of your time there.

Real life and fiction are two different things.

In Real Life, exclusivity unless one with many many people (think Apple) will not work.

In Fiction, it is a well used plot point for the good and bad guys, but in real life? It would die out within a few generations.

Also a big organisation like the Jedi(s) would strengthen itself and grow or worst splinter into many factions. The more people practicing a discipline the more knowledge you get, the more people you attract and thus the more you advance and grow. Also if you think about it. A faction like the Jedi(s) should not have died out by SW ep4.

They could have done many things, like flee the Empire. Going underground, etc. When there is a skill there will always be an organisation and the force can be viewed as one. People like to create societies, organisations, etc.

So if you view it logically, Star Wars contain many ??? plot points. And SWTOR's view of the Jedi and Sith is more accurate (if you take the Force as a logical factual thing ).