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What is your basis for opposing a group-searching system in SWTOR?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
What is your basis for opposing a group-searching system in SWTOR?

Hairyzac's Avatar


Hairyzac
12.28.2011 , 11:49 AM | #31
I have faith in BW to do the right thing. This is not wow and I'm certain they intend to keep important aspects, like finding your own groups, as a mainstay. Plus, people who actually enjoy playing mmos will not be too happy about a change like this, and BW could lose subs where as the reverse is highly unlikely.

Hairyzac's Avatar


Hairyzac
12.28.2011 , 11:57 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by CelticPete View Post
The problem really is the word 'community.' in this argument. It's take to mean some kind of pollyanna where everyone helps everyone. True. World of Warcraft never had THAT kind of community.

But they DID have a community where good sociable players could find groups very quickly and bad selfish players couldn't find anyone to bring them with them.

This is the main problem that cross server dungeon finders caused in WoW. In short - it doesn't matter if you suck. You can just queue and go again. In fact a tank - considered the pinnacle of skill can requeue the fastest of all if they suck. So they can easily 'group jump' to find a healer/dps to carry them.

And as someone that played in WoW before and after the Dungeon finder it really matters.. You want from PAGES of friends on your list to almost none because no one bothered to group manually anymore.

Of course this is just the start of the problem from a game designers perspective. The REAL problem is that a cross server group system speeds the forming of groups and lowers the quality of said groups. Thus you have to weaken your dungeons to compensate (people do not like repeated failures) AND make your players run them over and over..(you cannot have your players quickly out gear your content).

I'd rate this as equally bad if not worse then the side effects that ruin the community.

Actually WoW did have that type of community during its golden era. Most everyone did help everyone when I began playing during classic. I would meet total strangers who would go out of their way to help me knowing I was new to the game. Makes them feel good, and they were bettering the community by helping others out making them more informed, thus helping them in becoming a better player over time.

Some guy let me follow him on foot, from Ironforge to Ashenvale to complete my quest to obtain my Succubus on my warlock, my first toon ever. I had no idea where I was going. I was a noob. It felt like it took us an hour to get there. It was a lot of running for certain. I couldn't believe this guy helped me out to that extent. You feel the need/want to pay actions like this forward in your community.

I pretty much agree with your entire post Celtic Pete. Very well though out.

WuphonsReach's Avatar


WuphonsReach
12.28.2011 , 02:17 PM | #33
Cross-server automated group-building systems destroy any sense of community. Back during WoW's BC era all you had was the /lfg flag. So to build a group, you had to look for people with the LFG flag turned on and whisper them or hit up people on your friend's list. There was even a rudimentary LFG tool which let you indicate some things (heals, tank, DPS) and a comment system.

As a result a lot of groups got built around friend lists and if you were an idiot / ninja it didn't take long for your reputation to get around enough that you got blackballed by the server community.

Fast forward a bit and the RFD tool got added (and the old LFG tool was broken and no longer worked). The ninja-looters and griefers rejoiced because now they could get into groups. The rest of us either ran solely with guild groups, or we didn't run at all. Because there was no longer a server-only LFG tool, it got a lot harder to find and meet new people who might deserve a spot on our friends list.

What we have in-game does work (you can flag yourself as LFG and give yourself a comment such as "DPS LFG Esseles" or "Tank LFG Esseles"). You can use the /who window, plug in "LFG" in the search field and get a list of everyone who has flagged themselves as LFG.

And there's nothing stopping anyone from creating a player run channel called "LFG" that people join when they want to find a group. The server communities just need to sort that out.

Trucegore's Avatar


Trucegore
12.28.2011 , 02:50 PM | #34
All the flash points are in one or two rooms. If they were all over the world, it would be different.

No need.

TeyyOxto's Avatar


TeyyOxto
12.28.2011 , 03:05 PM | #35
An improved LFG search tool wouldn't be a bad idea, if implimented right. Most of the stuff I've seen people disagree with is a system where it will form a party for you. Give people something where they can easily see who's available, and let that be it.

My issue with it is that a "dungeon finder" is a gateway drug. A soon as someone waits 30 minutes, for whatever reason, they'll be crying "we need cross server, I can't even get a group with the automated thing".

Cross server anything destroys community, as well as all social graces. The only thing I dislike more than being in a group with a *****, is being in a group with a ***** who knows he can't be blacklisted for his behavior.

Graburr's Avatar


Graburr
12.28.2011 , 03:06 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Satans_Chosen View Post
From some of the posts I've seen, it sounds like a lot of people worry that a lfg system will embolden many players to act like jerks without fear of reprisal. I come from a game where the simple party-search system does not grant automatic entry to a group nor anonymity prior to joining. Character name, class, level are all easily seen. People who have a reputation for grieving others, even if just for that day, don't get accepted onto a team or can kicked by the leader if someone makes accusations against him. That's perfectly normal.

..

Perhaps some people are thinking about something like a queue system, where a bunch of people line up for some flashpoint or quest, then every 4 in line get grouped together like riding on a roller coaster. That is most definitely a terrible system for game teams and whoever came up with it should be fired.
DDO by any chance? if not, the tool is similar there.

but yes, people are trained to just have a button to click and then get dumped after some time into an instance. that's where most of the complaints come from. I'm not saying chat or the current lfg implementation is perfect, but it works (other games ONLY use chat to find groups, if it that broken of a system it wouldn'T work in any of them).

we had the same discussion in rift, where people asked for a "proper" lfg-tool - like you described - but the devs were adamant it has to be wow's easy/lazy one-button solution. maybe bioware is smarter and improves the lfg-functionality bit by bit instead of dumping a system from another game in here which means there is no going back.

because, what a lot of people seem to miss: if you have a tool that queues RANDOM people together (x-shard for example), the difficulty of the content has to scale accordingly - which means the instance has to be doable by a RANDOM uncoordinated team of varying degree of skill and equipment.
it's still a game, so the reward you get is either based on challenge and/or time. if you remove the challenge, the time you spend getting the item has to be make up for it. in wow terms, the number of tokens you need per item increases (let's say a hard boss gives you 10 tokens. you wipe a lot in the beginning, but finally beat it. took you an hour, but you get 10 tokens. now, the boss is nerfed so you can easily kill it every time, 30 minutes in the instance so it only gives you 4 tokens - since the challenge is not a criteria anymore, the reward has to be based on time).

Tekeda's Avatar


Tekeda
12.28.2011 , 03:33 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by AzKnc View Post
100% agreed, haven't managed to run a single heroic (or normal for that matter) if i don't count those made with a full guild group, which is plain wrong. Sure, we farm hcs with our own group, but if any of us (or even 2-3 just missing 1) want to get things going with randoms it's a nightmare.

Everyone should be able to do any fp at any time of the day/night imo. Having content/entertainment denied just cause the server is dead at weird hours or there doesn't happen to be people caring about what you want to farm is just terrible.

Here's a couple examples why the current stone age system is bad:

1)Just a couple days ago some random asked me if i wanted to do dir7 normal, so mind you, not even an hc or anything difficult, i said ok as i was just clearing corellia for the sake of it since the day i made 50 i had barely started that planet. Well, he/we couldn't find people no matter what, for 1,2,3 hours he kept searching, he even started asking for just 45+ people.

2)During a hc with randoms at some point a guy decided he couldn't be arsed to finish it and left, couldn't find a replacement for over an hour so we just gave up. BUT HEY at least we can blacklist that random who left, amirite? .. sigh. We would have rather have had someone insta joining via queue when the ***** left.

3)I'd like to make more examples on why this is terrible but truth is that aside from those 2 runs i couldn't even manage to get anything going (or joining).

Furthermore, the fleet system is nice and roleplayish but, seriously, when you've run instances 10+ times, all the loadings, taxis, recalls, elevators, whatever, get really ANNOYING AS HELL. It would be fine if it was a single player, but it isn't, mmos need functionality above everything else, come on. Force people to get the quest or discover entrances the first time maybe, sure, but after that, it shouldn't be required anymore.

tl:dr - wow's dungeon finder tool should be copy pasted into this game cause the current system is terrible in the long run and we aren't in 1999 anymore.
No I like the fact that your rep follows you. If you are anti social Pandas await you just go to them.

Bovverim's Avatar


Bovverim
12.28.2011 , 03:39 PM | #38
Put in a global LFG channel that covers all planets with the ability for moderating.
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Macheath's Avatar


Macheath
12.28.2011 , 04:07 PM | #39
IMO, BioWare's on the right track with their current LFG interface. However, they lack some features which would greatly improve the ease of it's use. A better way to indicate what your role is, as well as what specific dungeon(s) you are LFGing for is the first step (the current "notepad" system isn't adequate, as the note you leave often runs too long, and isn't fully visible.) A requirement of setting your status to "looking for group" would be to designate which dungeon(s) you wish to queue for, as well as which roles you are currently capable/willing to fulfill.

Second, there needs to be a search function, which allows players to search specifically for other players who are queued for the same dungeon, and also search for players who are willing to perform specific roles, like tank or healer, so you don't waste time inviting players who aren't willing to fulfill the role you need. There needs to be an option to "notify me" of any players which queue for the same dungeon as me, through a chime and/or pop up message. Perhaps that little notification above the chat window (which currently displays all players in your area, which is a pretty useless piece of information on it's own) could be tweaked to show all players currently queued for the same dungeon(s) as you.

Third, the list of players visible to you in the LFG tool needs to be server-wide as opposed to restricted to the planet you are on, allowing both players on planets, as well as players on the main space station hub, to group with each other effectively. This is a big one that is lacking from BioWare's game right now, the ability to communicate between different planets, and between planets and the main station.

What shouldn't happen, is cross-server queuing, or automation. The game should never automatically add me to a group of strangers. The game should not teleport me straight to the dungeon, then back to my original location once the dungeon is complete. While those features may be necessary in PvP (a completely different beast) these are the things that kill server community, by taking away all necessity to communicate with other players in any sort of meaningful way. At least, that's exactly what happened in Rift.

-Macheath.
Remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Enochx's Avatar


Enochx
12.28.2011 , 04:10 PM | #40
The game is perfect. There shall be no changes. No lfg tool because it will kill the people in the game and replace them with mindless wow zombies. I have spoken. It is now law.

You may stop talking about this thread now because it is now law.
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."