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What some don't understand about Neutrality.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
What some don't understand about Neutrality.

GBlues's Avatar


GBlues
12.27.2011 , 12:01 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by snooggums View Post
'Going neutral' makes zero logical sense on a decision by decision basis in any possible scenario in this game. The system is too simple to represent the kind of alignment you are trying for, and doing a mix of good and evil is actually evil in the greater scheme of things.

For example, if you want to be neutral, and you decide to kill some puppies and balance it with helping puppies at a later time, you are actually still evil because you killed puppies. The situations where there is a good reason to kill someone in one set of circumstances and save them in another simply aren't there in the available options because intent doesn't really matter.

The only reason for someone to end up neutral is because they are actively balancing their alignment externally from the decisions they are selecting. I'd love a more complex system that hid the alignment altogether (and removed alignment gear but NPCs responded to you based on your actions, such as making gear available due to reputation). That isn't in this game, and the players who are trying to be neutral are trying to force an ideal that doesn't fit into the alignment system.

There does need to be more gear without alignment restrictions that are equal to the alignment gear, don't get me wrong. I'm saying the 'problem' exists because players don't understand that they are trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

This poster actually hit the nail right on the head. What these 'Grey' people want is a myriad of choices. Imagine if you will....

"So I want you to kill this man!"

Choices
"Kill the man"
"Kill the man that ordered you to kill the man"
"KIll them both"
"Kill the man that ordered you to kill the man, but hide his body too."
"Kill them both, and put blasters in both of there hands to cover your dirty deed"
"Don't kill the man and let the man that ordered you do it."
"Turn tale and run"
"Do nothing."
"Crap your pants in fear"
"Kill the man as grotesquely as possible"

and on and on, and on, to infinity!

It's a game guys. ANd unfortunately, it has perameters. It has classes that you can choose to be. You can choose to either play your character accordingly to that class or you can try to be a "GOOD SITH" who just works for the really bad "Sith" and the "Empire" Come on.

THis conversation had been brought up before, and it's still just as lame as the first one that I read.

I don't understand why I can't keep my red lightsaber, because I have LS points. I must pretend to be a dutiful sith,(which I am) but I want to be good, and fake everyone out.

It's crap. It's a reason to complain. THe reality is this. Even in the real world. You have right choices and wrong choices. SOme choices have greater consequences and some have lesser. THere is no grey. It is either right or wrong, and it's that simple. If you choose to be a Good guy, and be light sided, you will apparently be rewarded for that at the end of the game with a relic. Great. Vice Versa if you choose to be a bad guy. The choice is yours. But you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.

Personally for all of you LS Sith I would like to see an option for you to completely leave the Sith Order all together. Where your LS choices become more and more in line with a Jedi. SO that your superiors see it, and you have to make a choice to either leave and join the Jedi, or your character dies forever. I think that would be awesome. You know why? Because playing a LS Bad guy is a pipe dream at best. You can't be evil, and just be a little bit. You either are or you are not. Evil is different than bad.

Bottom line, in my mind, again, play your character according to the class that you have chosen.

Empire=EVIL(not bad)
Bad( yep it goes right here. The guy who doesn't know what he stands for because he can't tell the difference between right and wrong. Good luck and good gaming.)

Republic-GOOD(not bad)

Bad is the fence. ANd evil built it. For those that don't know, you build your fence 6 inches on your property line. Ergo, grey or bad, or sitting on the fence, your still not good. YOur 6 inches on Evil's side. So why not just be evil? Your already there.

OR you could get off of the fence, and stand up for something and join the Republic and fight for good. HAHA!

Nuff said.
The human brain is the most powerful, deadliest weapon in the universe, and you have one.....well maybe.

SithZigg's Avatar


SithZigg
12.27.2011 , 12:21 AM | #32
I am fairly flexible when it comes to making those moral choices. It is mostly, "Ya, that LS choice works for me", or, "it is better than the alternative DS choice, which I definitely do not like." There has only been one, maybe two times, where I was not happy with the choices presented to me SI, but took LS anyway. Some true neutral choices would make going gray a reasonable choice.
I'm a Sith Enchantress, I do evil Sith dances! And when you look into my eyes, I'll put you in trances! And you know what I'll do? I will make a Sith brew! And finish you off with force lighting too! Soooooooooooo, watch out!

Nussianis's Avatar


Nussianis
12.27.2011 , 12:30 AM | #33
While I agree with some of the restrictions for light side/dark side gear, IE (nothing says a light side Jedi can't have a red lightsaber, its just a color) the problem really comes into focus when you look at the flashpoints.

Save the engineers(Light) or Allow them to die to save the ship faster(Dark). The second dark choice could be considered gray right? well where is the dark side option? Kill everyone and end flashpoint early? No

I can totally see where the OP feels that the system is keeping him from getting some gear due to alignment issues, and in a way he's right. However someone else here said, look farm some operations and flashpoints and choose what side you ultimately want to be on. But from the OP point of view he wants to be neutral and feels he should get some alignment gear for being able to play that way.

But then a couple other points come out from this, well I tried to be neutral and I ended at dark II, now the game is punishing me because I didn't go completely dark, rabble rabble rabble.

If you look at the most of the post in this forum you can see there are a lot of conflicts and ways to view the system. Breaking it down however, this game is KotOR continuation. In KotOR 1 there was no real push for neutrality where in KotOR 2, neutrality was at the very core of the games story line (well until the really out of place rushed finish to it). So if we in this thread can really see both sides to the issue, so does BW. I would expect them to more than likely focus on the light and dark side in the beginning and in a future xpac start to really explore the neutrality side.

Meglivorn's Avatar


Meglivorn
12.27.2011 , 03:44 AM | #34
I don't really understand the problem.
I turned off ALL alignment indicators possible and always chose the answer I think my character would choose. Now I'm around 3200 lightside along with ~450 dark.

I much more think the problem is that the players don't want to play their characters but tweak the numbers behind it. Choosing a dark side option just for balancing out a previous light choice is not morality just indicator manipulating.
Decide what your character will be like, and choose the answers that fits him/her. And it will turn out what "side" it takes. If you play in character that's what really matters, not the indicators. If not, then the whole problem doesn't exists, you already doesn't care about the decisions just the rewarded numbers.

(I actually hate the morailty systems like this be it dark/light or paragon/renegade or good/evil. The indicator kills the choices, the real decisions, becouse people always want to see the the bar filled to the max and spotless...)
"Many weapons can kill, but only the lightsaber can inspire such extremes of hope or fear."

Tallian's Avatar


Tallian
12.27.2011 , 03:54 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Meglivorn View Post
I don't really understand the problem.
I turned off ALL alignment indicators possible and always chose the answer I think my character would choose. Now I'm around 3200 lightside along with ~450 dark.

I much more think the problem is that the players don't want to play their characters but tweak the numbers behind it. Choosing a dark side option just for balancing out a previous light choice is not morality just indicator manipulating.
Decide what your character will be like, and choose the answers that fits him/her. And it will turn out what "side" it takes. If you play in character that's what really matters, not the indicators. If not, then the whole problem doesn't exists, you already doesn't care about the decisions just the rewarded numbers.

(I actually hate the morailty systems like this be it dark/light or paragon/renegade or good/evil. The indicator kills the choices, the real decisions, becouse people always want to see the the bar filled to the max and spotless...)
Look up the example for True Neutral in the old AD&D 2nd Ed Dungeon Masters Guide. How druids will change sides all the time to maintain the balance. Sometimes being aware of the light/dark side nature of a choice(and you can tell without the indicators, usually) is staying in character, because striving to maintain balance is a real thing (especially in the Star Wars universe).

Thalnar's Avatar


Thalnar
12.27.2011 , 08:45 AM | #36
i think it should be an option to maybe "lock" your alignment, i.e. i can only get light side / dark side points, but can still pick the alignment choices that don't neccesarily go along my selected path. think ultima online karma lock option for necromancers at the paladin shrines.
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NekoNoTejas's Avatar


NekoNoTejas
12.27.2011 , 09:06 AM | #37
This is a completely spurious argument since in the course of playing your 'alighnment' will win out if you play true to your own thoughts. You will end up Dark or Light depending on your personality. You may not be completely at either end of the scale but that does make sense as this is fictional universe.

In fiction only the true heroes and villians get access to the [insert relic name here] the average person ends up somewhere in the middle where they belong, making shoes or fixing cars or baking cakes...not saving/destroying planets. Thats how fiction works thats how stories work. Most people play games as a distraction from reality not as an attempt to recreate it with some new sound effects.

If you want a game that somewhat reflects 'reality' play MW3 or EVE something like that...
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Malaix's Avatar


Malaix
12.27.2011 , 09:10 AM | #38
My operative is stuck in the neutral zone because of this. He is a professional, not some charity good guy or rage-o-holic sadistic sith. I get a mission and I complete it as efficiently and quietly as possible. If I am told to capture someone I capture them. If I am told someone needs to be silenced I sneak in and silence them. I play whatever role I am given be it a pirate or a no one.

Its stuck me right in the neutral zone. I just hope I am no punished for it.

Shlamorel's Avatar


Shlamorel
12.27.2011 , 09:41 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Tallian View Post
Why can't I do this? If I choose to follow the teachings of Darth Revan(a choice that you have to actually make as a sith inquisitor) why am I punished by not being able to fill 2 entire gear slots?
There are relics that do not require alignment in the game.

Tallian's Avatar


Tallian
12.27.2011 , 09:44 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Shlamorel View Post
There are relics that do not require alignment in the game.
I actually just saw my first one(after seeing MANY aligned ones) about 20 minutes before downtime... when I finally got to 400 artifice. So thats one slot filled(since its BoP I'm pretty sure most like it are as well),

So while I am not completely SOL, I am seriously behind in terms of gear.