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What some don't understand about Neutrality.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
What some don't understand about Neutrality.

Mithros's Avatar


Mithros
12.25.2011 , 06:41 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Latorn View Post
In case it isn't apparent, this system currently punishes players for making their own choices in different quests. The system encourages players to not make their own choices, but rather make the same light side decision over and over, or the same dark side decision, so that the player is not gimped.[/U]
False argument.

You want to go 'gray' (which is a ridiculous notion given the framework of the system) and you are still constrained by the game.

You do not have a choice because you have to play the numbers. Even if you act like you are free as a bird to do what you want, when you get to 990 light or dark points, then next decision or three are made for you. You have to go the other way.

If you have been too light, then the next three people you have to kill, or lie to, or extort, or mistreat in whatever other way in order to not become light or dark 1.

That's not freedom. Further, it creates a system where characters act irrationally. They are enslaved by an imperfect system.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

You are not in any way forced to make the same decision over and over and over.

My character is free. My character makes the decision that seems right at the time. Maybe it means making a dark choice now and then, but my character is basically a light character.

So what? Those few hundred dark points I have built up are what makes my character who they are rather than some charicature.

This game and this system are built for characters like that. Characters that are heroes or villains, that are light or dark.

It does not, however, require that a character be only light or only dark.

Anyone trying to stay in the middle and pretenr that they are neutral are delusional, though.

They are bipolar, and a bigger slave to the system than any light or dark character that I play will ever be.

When all you think about are the numbers, then you lose any claim on freedom. Turn off the show alignment on mouseover options, take your finger off the Esc key, and just play the game.
Beta Squadron 157

As long as we remember, it's never really gone.

Latorn's Avatar


Latorn
12.25.2011 , 06:53 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
False argument.

You want to go 'gray' (which is a ridiculous notion given the framework of the system) and you are still constrained by the game.

You do not have a choice because you have to play the numbers. Even if you act like you are free as a bird to do what you want, when you get to 990 light or dark points, then next decision or three are made for you. You have to go the other way.

If you have been too light, then the next three people you have to kill, or lie to, or extort, or mistreat in whatever other way in order to not become light or dark 1.

That's not freedom. Further, it creates a system where characters act irrationally. They are enslaved by an imperfect system.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

You are not in any way forced to make the same decision over and over and over.

My character is free. My character makes the decision that seems right at the time. Maybe it means making a dark choice now and then, but my character is basically a light character.

So what? Those few hundred dark points I have built up are what makes my character who they are rather than some charicature.

This game and this system are built for characters like that. Characters that are heroes or villains, that are light or dark.

It does not, however, require that a character be only light or only dark.

Anyone trying to stay in the middle and pretenr that they are neutral are delusional, though.

They are bipolar, and a bigger slave to the system than any light or dark character that I play will ever be.

When all you think about are the numbers, then you lose any claim on freedom. Turn off the show alignment on mouseover options, take your finger off the Esc key, and just play the game.
I don't think you understand my argument. I'm not trying to go "grey" or neutral, I've ended up sliding between Light I, Dark I and neutral based on the decisions I've made.

Please read the very start of my post, because unless I've misunderstood you you've missed the entire purpose of this thread.



Oh and it's not about numbers, it's about access to gear (example). However, when I play I don't think about gear or numbers, I play the game how I want and that's how I've arrived at this point.

Tennej's Avatar


Tennej
12.25.2011 , 06:58 PM | #13
Proud member of the Decemberist Procrastinators.

I'll log on tomorrow...

Latorn's Avatar


Latorn
12.25.2011 , 07:00 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Tennej View Post
Thanks for reading the beginning of my thread.

Tallian's Avatar


Tallian
12.26.2011 , 02:14 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
False argument.

You want to go 'gray' (which is a ridiculous notion given the framework of the system) and you are still constrained by the game.

You do not have a choice because you have to play the numbers. Even if you act like you are free as a bird to do what you want, when you get to 990 light or dark points, then next decision or three are made for you. You have to go the other way.

If you have been too light, then the next three people you have to kill, or lie to, or extort, or mistreat in whatever other way in order to not become light or dark 1.

That's not freedom. Further, it creates a system where characters act irrationally. They are enslaved by an imperfect system.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

You are not in any way forced to make the same decision over and over and over.

My character is free. My character makes the decision that seems right at the time. Maybe it means making a dark choice now and then, but my character is basically a light character.

So what? Those few hundred dark points I have built up are what makes my character who they are rather than some charicature.

This game and this system are built for characters like that. Characters that are heroes or villains, that are light or dark.

It does not, however, require that a character be only light or only dark.

Anyone trying to stay in the middle and pretenr that they are neutral are delusional, though.

They are bipolar, and a bigger slave to the system than any light or dark character that I play will ever be.

When all you think about are the numbers, then you lose any claim on freedom. Turn off the show alignment on mouseover options, take your finger off the Esc key, and just play the game.
Revanites are delusional....

The Grey path is about deliberately making choices, that to an outsider, might seem insane, because by choosing to maintain an internal balance between the 2, and working to balance the 2 against each other in the world so that you can harness both for greater personal power.

Grey is ultimately darksided, since the only reason to do it is to maintain access to both the light and the dark side.

Why can't I do this? If I choose to follow the teachings of Darth Revan(a choice that you have to actually make as a sith inquisitor) why am I punished by not being able to fill 2 entire gear slots?

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
12.26.2011 , 03:00 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Latorn View Post


Edit #2: It seems like all neutral related threads are being moved from the general forums and being hidden in the story and lore forums... >.< Disappointing.
That IS disappointing.

I love the alignment system for the options it currently offers, as MMOs dont usually do this kind of stuff. And I have been able to act appallingly evil by the dark side choices so far, pretty unique in terms of games in general.

But the system shoehorning people to either light or dark is not a good thing.
Thats less immersive, not more. There needs to be more options than just the two imo, even though Im perfectly fine that this wouldn't apply to all situations. Life's full of tough choices, after all. There can be some. But not every conversation is about life and death.

While the devs may introduce more neutral alignment gear, I suspect we wont see them add more dialog options ot the current content, Im afraid. That would have to go through all the trouble that is involved for them to get voiceacted and all.
"Their strength became my own. Their minds became my own. All flesh is my flesh. None move, save I will it. This is the rule the Sith were promised, and I have made it real!"
- From the codex of Karness Muur

Evolvana's Avatar


Evolvana
12.26.2011 , 03:10 AM | #17
There should be Neutral gear, I agree. In the world nothing is all white or all black. Look at Han Solo: he's on the good side but he didn't always do nice and good things in his smuggler life.

Tallian's Avatar


Tallian
12.26.2011 , 03:13 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Karkais View Post
That IS disappointing.

I love the alignment system for the options it currently offers, as MMOs dont usually do this kind of stuff. And I have been able to act appallingly evil by the dark side choices so far, pretty unique in terms of games in general.

But the system shoehorning people to either light or dark is not a good thing.
Thats less immersive, not more. There needs to be more options than just the two imo, even though Im perfectly fine that this wouldn't apply to all situations. Life's full of tough choices, after all. There can be some. But not every conversation is about life and death.

While the devs may introduce more neutral alignment gear, I suspect we wont see them add more dialog options ot the current content, Im afraid. That would have to go through all the trouble that is involved for them to get voiceacted and all.
I gotta say, there are plenty of unaligned options. Sometimes you come to a place where you can only choose light or dark, but thats in those life or death situations(ordered ti save evil pirates life, you get a chance to kill him, ordered to kill witnesses you get a chance to spare them) so I don't think its an issue of the actual conversation choices. Its an issue of gear.

I WANT A RELIC!

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
12.26.2011 , 04:29 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Tallian View Post
I gotta say, there are plenty of unaligned options. Sometimes you come to a place where you can only choose light or dark, but thats in those life or death situations(ordered ti save evil pirates life, you get a chance to kill him, ordered to kill witnesses you get a chance to spare them) so I don't think its an issue of the actual conversation choices. Its an issue of gear.
Yea, I guess so. I think I wasn't paying that much attention from the beginning since I knew I was going to be eeevil from the start. And boy has Bioware delivered so far

Now next thing is for bioware to deliver enough costume options so we can look the part
"Their strength became my own. Their minds became my own. All flesh is my flesh. None move, save I will it. This is the rule the Sith were promised, and I have made it real!"
- From the codex of Karness Muur

Robidius's Avatar


Robidius
12.26.2011 , 05:59 AM | #20
I agree with the context of this thread as a whole. I'm not saying, yeah let's make "Gray" stuff cause on the one side of the argument, I agree. That's just kinda dumb in many ways, but I respect the "Revanite" philosophy but when I do things on my Bounty Hunter for example I'm not really "Grey" I go where I want my character to go...where the credits are. I A lot of times, if I feel I'm not being paid to do something enough I won't do it and it will yield LS points or if I was paid to bring a boy back and murder his father because it was what I was -paid- to do that will yield DS points. In the black talon, for example, Kilran heavily inferred the imperial treasury would be grateful to do what was requested and he wanted the captain dead (DS points) and would prefer the General returned (LS points) which is what I tend to do even though I gave kilran a hard time because my bounty hunter doesn't really care for authority or the empire as a whole, just money. (doing those two options makes me walk out even dark/light) I've already RPed that if the republic had a bounty board I'd be working for them too. So, it becomes difficult later on to use restricted items for this reason. So while' I'm not exactly in "neutral" since I have like 750 LS points and around 600 DS points because decisions I would make as a character -myself-.

I'm also having a similar problem on my inquisitor, I'm doing selfish things or what I like to think as "planting" seeds of dissent for later to confuse other Sith so I can rise to power and I've already yielded quite a bit of LS from it. I'm about 800 LS and 700 DS, because I'm doing it for -me- and if I feel I'm ever questioned(even though that wouldnt happen but I like to immerse in my character) I could simply pin it on the person who assigned me the mission with enough cunning. It's not for some self righteous point of view I do this. I'm not trying to be "unique" in rolling a LS Sith because I know people want to do that like they are somehow "breaking the mold", far from it. I'm trying to RP a "Machiavelli/Sun Tzu" type character by balancing subjugation of being Feared and Loved and if you cannot have both then it is probably better to be Feared.

This is the issue of this thread, there has to be someway to make it work. Instead of maybe saying Dark 1 alignment maybe it could be Dark 1 alignment -or- 2000 alignment points total...or something. I'm sure there is other ways of approaching it where they can reward people who stay on one path and ways to appeal to people who like to make decisions based on how they want to play their characters.