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Darth Nihl vs Kit FIsto


cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.17.2015 , 10:29 AM | #11
Fisto is arguably the better duelist, and he also sports a slight stylistic advantage in the way that Shii-Cho is geared toward disarming, for which Nihl's long-handle lightsaber is a perfect target.
But Nihl is firmly the more powerful force user out of the two. He one shotted a Skywalker with lightning, and choked out another with TK.

Overall Nihl is a good enough duelist to hold off Fisto for a long period of time, on the other hand though I'm not sure Fisto has any viable counter to Nihl's overwhelming powers.

Nihl 7/10.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

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PurpleDelirium's Avatar


PurpleDelirium
10.17.2015 , 11:10 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Fisto is arguably the better duelist, and he also sports a slight stylistic advantage in the way that Shii-Cho is geared toward disarming, for which Nihl's long-handle lightsaber is a perfect target.
But Nihl is firmly the more powerful force user out of the two. He one shotted a Skywalker with lightning, and choked out another with TK.

Overall Nihl is a good enough duelist to hold off Fisto for a long period of time, on the other hand though I'm not sure Fisto has any viable counter to Nihl's overwhelming powers.

Nihl 7/10.
Fisto's speed would probably be a viable counter. And Nihl one shotted Kol Skywalker after he had already killed dozens of Sith, he was only killed after literally standing on a pile of them. Nihl completely ambushed him and waited until Kol was running on empty. Never even met him head on

When he choked out Cade he was completely distracted, paying all his attention to Talon. When he did actually confront Cade head on he was utterly defeated, and that was even with the help of Talon.

In this scenario Nihl won't have a chance to ambush Kit or have him tire himself out fighting other Sith. I'm still standing by my 6/10 for Kit so far.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.17.2015 , 11:42 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by PurpleDelirium View Post
Fisto's speed would probably be a viable counter. And Nihl one shotted Kol Skywalker after he had already killed dozens of Sith, he was only killed after literally standing on a pile of them. Nihl completely ambushed him and waited until Kol was running on empty. Never even met him head on
Fisto's speed seems to be exaggerated lately. Yes he's fast, but so is Nihl. Nihl was a top dog of his era, and he was duelist foremost. Which means he probably spent more time developing his Control abilities over Alter. Unless Fisto gona blitz, any speed advantage he might have is irrelevant. People try to use it as a trump card, when it's really not.

And I don't see why is it of any note that Kol wasn't fresh. Nihl killed scores of Jedi himself as well that day. He was leading the assault afterall. One shotting someone with Lightning is still highly impressive. It's something Count Dooku failed to do on anyone of note.

Quote:
When he choked out Cade he was completely distracted, paying all his attention to Talon. When he did actually confront Cade head on he was utterly defeated, and that was even with the help of Talon.
That was a prime Cade though, and he wasn't utterly defeated nor did he have help from Talon. Talon was cut down before Nihl even entered the fray. In the end he lost after a prolonged engagement when Cade dug into his dark side. Anyway the Cade Nihl chocked out wasn't prime, but still he was powerful enough to hurl shuttles like nobody's business.
And he didn't really ambushed Cade. Cade had every time in the world to respond:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...5695-45262.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...1374-45262.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...4287-45262.png
And he did that without any apparent effort.

Quote:
In this scenario Nihl won't have a chance to ambush Kit or have him tire himself out fighting other Sith. I'm still standing by my 6/10 for Kit so far.
I fail to see how Krayt's hand, a duelist who was the best Nagai hunter even before receiving Sith training would require ambush to take on a Fisto level opponent.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

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PurpleDelirium's Avatar


PurpleDelirium
10.17.2015 , 06:32 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Fisto's speed seems to be exaggerated lately. Yes he's fast, but so is Nihl. Nihl was a top dog of his era, and he was duelist foremost. Which means he probably spent more time developing his Control abilities over Alter. Unless Fisto gona blitz, any speed advantage he might have is irrelevant. People try to use it as a trump card, when it's really not.


Never said it was a trump card, but it certainly is an important factor, and given Nihl's cumbersome weapon and his usual ambush tactics it is only further made evident in this instance.

Quote:
And I don't see why is it of any note that Kol wasn't fresh. Nihl killed scores of Jedi himself as well that day. He was leading the assault afterall. One shotting someone with Lightning is still highly impressive. It's something Count Dooku failed to do on anyone of note.
Quote:
How is that not of any note to you? Although Nihl said he had killed many jedi, again, he did not confront Kol head on, he completely ambushed him.. Kol was literally standing on top of a mound of corpses, and although he is a Skywalker, we know literally nothing else about him. What makes you think he is inexhaustible? And given that he was completely caught off guard as well as likely totally spent, I do not see how it is impressive or a surprise that he managed to kill him.

Quote:
That was a prime Cade though, and he wasn't utterly defeated nor did he have help from Talon. Talon was cut down before Nihl even entered the fray. In the end he lost after a prolonged engagement when Cade dug into his dark side. Anyway the Cade Nihl chocked out wasn't prime, but still he was powerful enough to hurl shuttles like nobody's business.
And he didn't really ambushed Cade. Cade had every time in the world to respond:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...5695-45262.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...1374-45262.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...4287-45262.png
And he did that without any apparent effort.
So what you're telling me is Cade had already defeated a fully trained Sith before being attacked by Nihl? And again, he hardly confronted him head o, the scans you are showing do not disprove my point, especially considering Nihl had broken through Cade's force barrier before he had even had time to recuperate himself. Cade may have been already powerful at this point, but he was hardly refined. This is just another example of that.

Quote:
I fail to see how Krayt's hand, a duelist who was the best Nagai hunter even before receiving Sith training would require ambush to take on a Fisto level opponent.
Being Krayt's hand falls in line with accolades, and that really is the last thing to be considered when comparing characters. Not only that, but being a Nagai warlord really isn't that special considering he has the advantage of being force sensitive, an advantage none of his enemies likely had. Not even mentioning being a warlord insinuates you have a whole warband to back you up. Also, being Krayt's hand doesn't necessarily mean that he is some amazing combatant like most seem to think he is. His experience as a warlord grants him tactical experience as a general, and it is for that reason he was chosen to lead to the attack on Ossus, not because of his combative abilities alone.

The way I see it, Nihl had given himself the advantage of having others fight for him often before engaging his opponent himself. The only enemy he had really confronted head on and had defeated was Wolf Sazen; a very average combatant whom had also been killing tons of Sith left and right in a battle. And that is not even mentioning that the Jedi were stated as having been hugely outnumbered during the attack on Ossus.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.17.2015 , 10:05 PM | #15
Ehhhh, okay. Have it your way man, lowball Nihl all you like.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

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PurpleDelirium's Avatar


PurpleDelirium
10.17.2015 , 10:18 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Ehhhh, okay. Have it your way man, lowball Nihl all you like.
I am not lowballing him at all, only presenting the facts.

I genuinely mean it when I say I would love to be proved wrong, and I have conceded to your well made points on other threads.

But I am not seeing a convincing argument to explain how Nihl could beat Fisto more than 4/10

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LordQordisz
10.17.2015 , 10:26 PM | #17
Luck?

Quote: Originally Posted by Shatterpoint - Chapter 6: Civilians
Luck does not exist. Luck is only a word we use to describe our blindness to the subtle currents of the Force.
Nah, Obi-Wan is lucky.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.17.2015 , 11:05 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by PurpleDelirium View Post
I am not lowballing him at all, only presenting the facts.

I genuinely mean it when I say I would love to be proved wrong, and I have conceded to your well made points on other threads.

But I am not seeing a convincing argument to explain how Nihl could beat Fisto more than 4/10
You downplay his accolades on purpose, or in same cases directly contradict them. And you try to disregard his best showings with the pretext of "ambush".
Your points are not counterable because you don't acknowledge anything. But let me give it a shot:


Quote: Originally Posted by PurpleDelirium View Post
Never said it was a trump card, but it certainly is an important factor, and given Nihl's cumbersome weapon and his usual ambush tactics it is only further made evident in this instance.
Citation needed.
Quote:
How is that not of any note to you? Although Nihl said he had killed many jedi, again, he did not confront Kol head on, he completely ambushed him.. Kol was literally standing on top of a mound of corpses, and although he is a Skywalker, we know literally nothing else about him. What makes you think he is inexhaustible? And given that he was completely caught off guard as well as likely totally spent, I do not see how it is impressive or a surprise that he managed to kill him.
Here's the ambush again. Nihl was literally talking to Kol. Descendant of Luke Skywalker, head of the Jedi Council. No matter how exhausted he might've been, he's still a powerful force user.
Quote:
So what you're telling me is Cade had already defeated a fully trained Sith before being attacked by Nihl? And again, he hardly confronted him head o, the scans you are showing do not disprove my point, especially considering Nihl had broken through Cade's force barrier before he had even had time to recuperate himself. Cade may have been already powerful at this point, but he was hardly refined. This is just another example of that.
Recuperate from what? Nihl pushed Cade, and then slowly choked him out. While Nihl likely caught Cade offguard, the suprise was immediately gone, there was plenty of time to counter it. For comparison this or this is how it looks when you bite more than you can chew. Note how they had to let go of the choke after seconds? It was not the case with Nihl. If Cade could've prevented it he would've, but he couldn't.
Quote:
Being Krayt's hand falls in line with accolades, and that really is the last thing to be considered when comparing characters. Not only that, but being a Nagai warlord really isn't that special considering he has the advantage of being force sensitive, an advantage none of his enemies likely had. Not even mentioning being a warlord insinuates you have a whole warband to back you up. Also, being Krayt's hand doesn't necessarily mean that he is some amazing combatant like most seem to think he is. His experience as a warlord grants him tactical experience as a general, and it is for that reason he was chosen to lead to the attack on Ossus, not because of his combative abilities alone.
Melee combat, especially the use of edged weapons, is highly integrated into Nagai culture. It is a rare Nagai who does not display an expert's hand in the use of blades of all sizes.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide

But before he was a sith, before he was a warlord, Nihl was a tracker - a hunter. The best of all the Nagai.
—Star Wars: Legacy

The man who would eventually take the name Darth Nihl was once a Nagai warlord and a scourge of the Unknown Regions before joining the Sith. Darth Nihl used his latent skill with the Force to lead bands of marauders in raids all across his world, well outside of the domain of the Galactic Alliance.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide

While rebuilding the Sith, Darth Krayt encounters Darth Nihl and offers him a place within the Sith order. Nihl agrees, undergoes the training to become a Sith Lord, and rises to the rank of Emperor's Hand after his predecessor dies under mysterious circumstances. Darth Nihl is an ambitious Sith Lord who lets nothing stand in the way of his continued ascent.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide

A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide
Quote:
The way I see it, Nihl had given himself the advantage of having others fight for him often before engaging his opponent himself. The only enemy he had really confronted head on and had defeated was Wolf Sazen; a very average combatant whom had also been killing tons of Sith left and right in a battle. And that is not even mentioning that the Jedi were stated as having been hugely outnumbered during the attack on Ossus.
I'm not sure where that notion comes from. He was leading, literally leading from the front, the Massacre at Ossus. He caught Cade offguard once. So now he is a combatant who is uncapable of a fair fight? Hardly.

He stomped Wolf Sazen at Ossus, later they had a rematch with the help of Cade, yet Nihl still held his own. He also had a lengthy duel with a prime Cade who just speed blitzed Darth Talon. Talon herself was a Hand, very deadly, skilled, agile and fast. That feat alone should put Nihl on par (or beyond) Fisto's speed tier.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

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PurpleDelirium's Avatar


PurpleDelirium
10.18.2015 , 06:51 PM | #19
Quote:
]You downplay his accolades on purpose, or in same cases directly contradict them. And you try to disregard his best showings with the pretext of "ambush".
Your points are not counterable because you don't acknowledge anything. But let me give it a shot:
I'm not downplaying anything, only presenting them as they actually are.

Quote:
Citation needed.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2Y...ersome&f=false

"When used on its own, the pike was cumbersome, heavy weapon."

Quote:
Here's the ambush again. Nihl was literally talking to Kol. Descendant of Luke Skywalker, head of the Jedi Council. No matter how exhausted he might've been, he's still a powerful force user.
Yes, he ambushed him. No, he wasn't talking to Kol, he had uttered a mere two words to himself.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nihl...ImGAbK-B9yM%3A

https://www.google.com/search?q=nihl...Kg8l6p1EE9M%3A

Notice the mound of corpses.

I urge you to reread Legacy if you are going to argue for Nihl. At the very least, read the surrounding panels for the scans you choose to use, instead of cutting out almost all of the important details and fabricating yourself a point of argument. You are twisting what actually had happened.

Quote:
Recuperate from what? Nihl pushed Cade, and then slowly choked him out. While Nihl likely caught Cade offguard, the suprise was immediately gone, there was plenty of time to counter it. For comparison this or this is how it looks when you bite more than you can chew. Note how they had to let go of the choke after seconds? It was not the case with Nihl. If Cade could've prevented it he would've, but he couldn't.
This is simply not true. This occurs on issue 14 of Legacy.

Go back and look and you will see that Nihl never pushed Cade. An unrefined and bloodlusted Cade is engaging Talon, and Nihl interrupts AS HE JUST WALKS INTO THE SCENE and then force chokes Cade before he even know he is there.

You are seriously using a clip from TCW in order to argue your point? Where did you read or what TCW writer ever said that is exactly what had occured? Savage Opress is a brute of a character, him slamming Asajj and Dooku like that falls totally in line with literally all his other combative feats. He is a barbarian. Although I'm sure at least Dooku could have broken the choke, there is no actual indication that what you are trying to argue had actually happened.

Quote:
Melee combat, especially the use of edged weapons, is highly integrated into Nagai culture. It is a rare Nagai who does not display an expert's hand in the use of blades of all sizes.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide
That would be awesome if Kit Fisto wasn't a fully trained Jedi Master or a master of Shii-Cho.

Quote:
But before he was a sith, before he was a warlord, Nihl was a tracker - a hunter. The best of all the Nagai.
—Star Wars: Legacy
Ok? Kit Fisto isn't game. He is a Jedi.

Quote:
The man who would eventually take the name Darth Nihl was once a Nagai warlord and a scourge of the Unknown Regions before joining the Sith. Darth Nihl used his latent skill with the Force to lead bands of marauders in raids all across his world, well outside of the domain of the Galactic Alliance.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide
So he had a warband and force powers to use against non-force sensitives? What's this have to do with an advantage over Kit Fisto? It speaks for his tactical knowledge but Kit Fisto was a leader too, he was a general in the Clone Wars.

Quote:
While rebuilding the Sith, Darth Krayt encounters Darth Nihl and offers him a place within the Sith order. Nihl agrees, undergoes the training to become a Sith Lord, and rises to the rank of Emperor's Hand after his predecessor dies under mysterious circumstances. Darth Nihl is an ambitious Sith Lord who lets nothing stand in the way of his continued ascent.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide
Wish we knew anything about his predecessor, or even how he killed him. This falls in line with accolades, and again the last thing to be considered.

Quote:
A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously.
—Legacy era Campaign Guide
How much do we know about the majority of the surrounding Sith? Little to nothing, other than Talon, Maladi,Wyyrlock. and a few others.

Quote:
I'm not sure where that notion comes from. He was leading, literally leading from the front, the Massacre at Ossus. He caught Cade offguard once. So now he is a combatant who is uncapable of a fair fight? Hardly.

He stomped Wolf Sazen at Ossus, later they had a rematch with the help of Cade, yet Nihl still held his own. He also had a lengthy duel with a prime Cade who just speed blitzed Darth Talon. Talon herself was a Hand, very deadly, skilled, agile and fast. That feat alone should put Nihl on par (or beyond) Fisto's speed tier.
[/QUOTE]

Clearly he wasn't leading from the front in a fashion that would award him the combative credibility you are arguing for. When Kol was stomping Sith left and right and standing on top of a pile of their corpses he was no where to be found.

He "stomped" a very average Jedi combatant, whom had already killed a large number of Sith? That's supposed to be impressive? And again, you are totally twisting what had actually happened. In their rematch, Sazen held his own against Nihl WITH ONE ARM. Cade interrupted their fight and attacked Nihl, and then Nihl and Cade fought 1v1. Again, you are twisting what had actually happened.

Cade blitzing Talon happened on issue 18 of the series, at this time Cade had no formal jedi training since Ossus, and very little Sith training. You actually believe he was in his prime? Also given the fact that Cade and Talon had been sparring frequently before this occurrence, it comes to no surprise that he could dispatch her. And Nihl's and Cade's fight was hardly lengthy, and he got his arm cut off and nearly killed. Cade chose not to kill him only because Krayt wanted him to, and Cade wanted to spite Krayt. He should be dead.

Read the that issue and you will see for yourself. All that I have said is presented exactly as it were in the comics.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.18.2015 , 06:56 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by PurpleDelirium View Post
You are twisting what actually had happened.
The irony is staggering.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

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