this is a long post that will speak of various trends in gaming, foremost the most important one that annoys/interests a lot of hardcore gamers (or former hardcore gamers like myself) - the trend of 'casualism'. i will first reference some important articles about the issue, speak of certain developments (past and present), and then analyze them from a hardcore gamer's perspective in order to attempt conveying the situation to my former crowd.

 

first, i am going to cross-analyze the above situation with wow - because it is the most well known mmo that has the biggest (or had) subscribers, and exhibited both the ills and goods of mmo gaming.

 

blizzard had had discovered that only 5% of its active players had actually seen end game content in vanilla wow and burning crusade expansion. and this was the reason why they had made 'end game content' wow has (raids) more accessible in wrath of the lich king expansion, which worked well to some extent.

 

but after criticism from 'hardcore' gamerbase, they had made the dungeons and raids in cataclysm much more harder and more 'rewarding', and this has been the result :

 

http://venturebeat.com/2011/05/11/warcraft-quit-600k-subscribers/

 

600,000 subscribers lost in just 3 months - note - this is the subscription loss amount - not even the loss of active playing players - many people would just keep their subscription and log in from time to time to do stuff, and therefore would not be lost subscribers. but, it did not happen that way. people just canceled their accounts.

 

this tells us that tying the content of a game into high gated, long, grindfests are not something that gamers are stomaching anymore :

 

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/07/20/0349207/developer-panel-asks-whether-aaa-games-are-too-long

 

(edit : i forgot to include this link at the start)

 

Gamespot reports on a discussion at the Develop 2011 conference in which a panel of game designers debated whether recent big-budget releases like Heavy Rain and L.A. Noire were too long for a typical gamer's taste. Quoting: "'Gamers are losing patience,' said [Alexis Kennedy of Failbetter Games], when asked about his own experiences with Heavy Rain, 'so many people don't reach the end and lose the full impact of the story.' He wasn't complimentary of its narrative either, questioning the benefit of basing a game on long-form narrative such as film, resulting in a 'bastardized' storyline that doesn't quite work. ... The likes of social and casual games, particularly the cheap games available on mobile, have changed the expectations of gamers, the panel concluded. Since gamers are paying less money, there's less need to create 10-hour-plus gaming experiences, because consumers no longer feel shortchanged."

 

it is only natural - living has become more fast-paced in our time and age. people just dont have the time like they had back in 10-15 years ago to spend in front of timesinks in games. not to mention that the young, first generation playerbase of gaming 10 years ago, has now grown into fully responsible adults, and do not have much time to invest in games like the time they were in high school and college - i am one of them. and whenever they log into a game, they need to be actually doing something entertaining and fun at that point in time that evening - not grinding for 2 hours each day of the week so that they may get to something fun next weekend in another 4 hour grindfest with 19 other people. (what you call a raid).

 

and now let me speak from a first person perspective. so that i will be able to voice the perspective of these silent masses - who actually decide the course of gaming with their wallet - from a former hardcore gamer's perspective. (me)

 

dont get me wrong - i had always been a hardcore gamer ; i raided in my time, i also have done pvp (a lot), i have done crafting (in swg), i also played simulations (hardcore and casual alike), hardcore strategy games (europa universalis to civilization), and even online competitive gaming (starcraft) - i basically did anything that could be done in gaming in the last 15 years. (my main entertainment/hobby has been gaming and i spent a lot of time on it, and i dont regret a single minute of it).

 

but i cannot be arsed anymore. when i fire up a game to get myself entertained, i need to have entertainment in front of me. not a grindfest.

 

since im not young anymore and have accomplished what people are supposed to accomplish in their adult lives, i dont feel the need to be 'rewarded' for my effort either - i additionally find the idea of a piece of online gear item that improves the statistics of my toon with 1% after a 4 hour grind as a 'reward', ridiculous.

 

now, the things that entertain me in games are games in which i can be creative in a living gameworld, very well written and very well told/animated stories (like the main class stories of THIS game), and curious discovery.

 

im sure most of who are reading this will have different perspectives on this subject. but let me tell you one thing - you will come to the point i have come, eventually. young or old, hardcore or moderate, raider or crafter, it is inevitable; when you do gaming for long enough, the novelty of grind/reward cycle and grindfests in ANY game (single player or mmo) will eventually wear off. this is the curse of hardcore gamers. kicking, screaming, getting angry, yelling, insulting, forcing yourself to play will not help - its human nature; you eventually get tired of repeating the same things over and over again. even when things change, if the pattern is the same, you get bored with it eventually.

 

for the masses, who were already casual, this is not a factor -they were already at this point. and already, mobile games, indie games, 'social games' (farmville, or even civilization on facebook etc) are being raised to prominence by these masses. (farmville boasts 80 million or so players itself - a whopass 80 million !) - major, major purchasing power.

 

combine this with the fact that wii revolutionized gaming by bringing in simple fun into games, and you can see where the world is headed.

 

.................

 

this should not bother you though - for gaming has had changed into a player-milking, gamerbase exploiting moneymaking scheme through timesinks - in mid 90s, the marketing types in now megacorp-owned game developing houses had invented 'playtime' as a marketing item, and all games had adjusted themselves to increase this 'playtime' -> it meant that if you had to spent longer time in game, it had more value because it had more 'playtime'.

 

and this trend caused long grindfests, long, painstakingly elongated storylines, many timesinks being introduced into games in order to keep the players playing.

 

the pinnacle of this was what everquest has invented - grind and reward system. which has been matured and brought to peak with wow.

 

basically we were being milked while being subjected to do NON-fun things in order to be able to get to something fun IN THE END of that effort. if you look at it from a broader perspective, it was utterly, utterly stupid. even more painstaking and boring than life itself - because in real life 'gameworld', you have the choice of doing something else or totally engaging in a different 'playstyle'. but in a game, you dont.

 

since all corporations followed the same format because it made good money over hardcore playerbase, there wasnt a choice either. any aaa title would be 50 to 90% timesink, and rest, maybe, maybe fun.

 

but now, with consumerization of gaming and masses coming into gamerbase through more accessible hardware (laptops, namely) and games (thanks to internet), the corporations who had sucked off hardcore gamer blood to make money will have to either adapt and increase the amount of non-grind fun in their games, or perish. and this is how it should have been.

 

back in early 1990s, gaming was young, and it was not a megasector like this. back then, all the game developers were small companies, founded and staffed by people who were actually gamers themselves, and games were being created through curiosity and fun. this was the era everything was invented, and almost ALL the franchises and names (ranging from c&c to wow, to fifa) were started. this continued until gaming become very profitable and megacorporations bought small companies and implemented the usual mass market consumer milking strategies. (corporization of gaming).

 

with this new, inevitable and irresistible trend, we can get back the lost element in gaming - fun, experimenting, and curiosity.

 

and every major outfit in the gaming world needs to pay attention to this trend (some like id, valve, firaxis are already doing - hence, stuff like civilization on facebook or something). blizzard is also paying attention - they are increasingly making the game more accessible since burning crusade - only to make a mistake with the instances/raids in cataclysm -.

 

since this game, swtor, took wow as an example at its peak (circa 2007-2008), almost everything except the story is taken from wow. and thats a bad thing, because wow itself is transforming and changing to adapt to the new 'more fun, less grind' trend.

 

so, while there is time, this game also needs to see the horizon and start changing/adapting accordingly, as proven by wow's own example.

 

................................

 

as a sidenote, the most successful part of this game, is the story engine. which is clearly a new incarnation of the engine/format they used in kotor i and ii, and then in mass effect and dragon age. and it is very well suited to bringing 'star wars' into gamers' houses. it is 'fun'. it should be expanded and improved, before anything else.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Enako

since this game, swtor, took wow as an example at its peak (circa 2007-2008), almost everything except the story is taken from wow. and thats a bad thing, because wow itself is transforming and changing to adapt to the new 'more fun, less grind' trend.

 

so, while there is time, this game also needs to see the horizon and start changing/adapting accordingly, as proven by wow's own example.

 

................................

 

as a sidenote, the most successful part of this game, is the story engine. which is clearly a new incarnation of the engine/format they used in kotor i and ii, and then in mass effect and dragon age. and it is very well suited to bringing 'star wars' into gamers' houses. it is 'fun'. it should be expanded and improved, before anything else.

 

Great post. It mirrors my sentiments about the game mechanics in SWTOR. It presents almost nothing progressive and new in MMORPGs of the last few years. Even World of Warcraft has changed drastically away from it's Subscription Timesink model to something a bit more accessible, but still not all the way there.

 

In the new year we have two MMORPGs that are doing things very, very differently. Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World. Of the two GW2 has very high odds of being quite successful and changing the way people play MMORPGs. TSW can also pull this off.

 

SWTOR is going to find itself looking like a Dinosaur against the functionality of these new MMORPGs, and the changed "old school" RPGs. It may find success as the last "New Old School" MMO...but I doubt it.

 

The running around, criss crossing of zones, no auto-group tool for PVE, no customisable User Interface, Hiding statistics by not offering Combat Logs, no User Mods, mounts late in the leveling curve etc. etc. have all been tried, and now rejected.

 

What I like about SWTOR are the character stories that play like a Single Player RPG, the Crafting system, and Companions. Of the two only one has any relation to Massively Multiplayer and that's the Crafting where I can probably sell stuff to other players. But then the Auction house is an anachronism as well. The other day I realised I'd have been happy with a Co-Op SWTOR. Rift, on the other hand, I enjoy as a MMO to provide some comparison.

 

I'm in SWTOR till max level to see how my character story turns out (If I can decide which character I'm enjoying playing). Hopefully they announce changes before then, but the responses from the developers on what are for me some key issues has been lukewarm at best so far.

and ?

 

And your feedback will be limited because of the immense size of that post.

Excellent post, Thanks for a good insight and reality check about our chosen passtime.

I saw the 600,000 lost and tuned out myself

 

Clearly OP talking about WOW and anyone thats played more MMORPGs then that game knows WOW is a exception to the MMORPG rule, NOT THE ACTUAL RULE.

 

Games have copied WOW formula and died out in weeks after release (ok not weeks but not long after), so this claim that because after 7 years WOW is losing its player base because of grinding is .... well I cant actually say what it is because of forum rules.

 

The smartest thing ANY Developer making a MMORPG is only look at WOW as WHAT NOT TO DO, Exact same thing you do with SWG and what it did, and move forward from there.

 

Really the formula (again for anyone with more then just WOW or later experience) isnt that hard and Bioware almost nailed it.

 

CONTENT, thats the key, make sure there is content available to the average player (not the "again cant call them for what they are" who skip most of the content and then complain they ran outta content at the end) and you can make levels 100 hours long each. THATS NOT GRINDING. Slow progression extends a MMORPGs life. You just need to make sure there is content during the slow progression (and again, not saying anything earth shattering for those that had previous to WOW experience in MMORPGs.)

 

But seems to me the WOW and later players are intent on calling anything that stops them from maxing out in a week "GRINDING"

 

Probably one of my biggest pet peeves now, hearing WOW and later players use terms they have no clue what they mean.

 

SW:TOR has NO GRIND. Bioware could cut xp in half across the board (and should) and SW:TOR still would have NO GRIND.

 

And as for WOW, WHO CARES??? Beyond its amazingly well done marketting, its not a real standard on how to do anything AT ALL! But again, people who been around before the WOW POP Culture hit understand these things and can think beyond 1 poorly designed game that added a bunch of bright colors and drew 20 million "again forum rules" in on flash and smoke and nothing else of any substance or quality. You all got sold a bill of goods! You bought the Bridge, you bought the swampland farm. Accept it and move on. 600,000 cancelling just means 600,000 finally woke up and moved to more fertile land. Has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Grinding (or the miss used version of grinding the OP tries to protray).

 

I really wish people would let WOW go already, it had a 7 year run while doing nothing new, innovative creative at all. Let it go!

 

If 2 billion people suddenly stopped eating at McDonalds tommorrow, would that mean the latest special a failure? No, more then likely that would mean 2 billion finally figured out McDonalds is garbage and moved on.

 

Same principle applies to WOW.

I saw the 600,000 lost and tuned out myself

 

Clearly OP talking about WOW and anyone thats played more MMORPGs then that game knows WOW is a exception to the MMORPG rule, NOT THE ACTUAL RULE.

 

Games have copied WOW formula and died out in weeks after release (ok not weeks but not long after), so this claim that because after 7 years WOW is losing its player base because of grinding is .... well I cant actually say what it is because of forum rules.

 

...................

 

 

If 2 billion people suddenly stopped eating at McDonalds tommorrow, would that mean the latest special a failure? No, more then likely that would mean 2 billion finally figured out McDonalds is garbage and moved on.

 

Same principle applies to WOW.

 

So much hate! Cower before his anger, apprentice.

Yeah, it's a lot like the 100 video tapes thing. I haven't bothered to do the collecting thing in SP action games for a very long time because I find it dull. I think you dismiss 'the story thing' a little bit too casually though. It's a big deal to me. I will play through 8 story-lines because it's there. If all that's left after that is grinding I suspect I'll put my sub on ice for a while (assuming that's available by then) until they expand the world and the class quests. That said, Flashpoints are fun. A lot of fun. I enjoy seeing what people are going to say and having the fighting actually tied to a narrative sequence is interesting to me. Edited December 25, 2011 by Pherdnut

So much hate! Cower before his anger, apprentice.

 

heheh good one

 

Actually no hate, just vastly worn out patience.

 

Do you know what I hear when someone says "Im a WOW Vet". No joke, I hear "Im a McDonalds Fry Guy".

 

I know this the internet and everyone entitled to their opinion,

 

But im outta patince for the quick fix, now now now, gimme gimme gimme crowd.

 

TOR almost got it right, ALMOST, but then they pandered to the gimme gimnme gimme crowd and because of it, to experience all the content, I have to play well over half the game when its grey and no challenge.

 

And that makes me cranky to be honest!

 

All because some fry guys couldnt pick up a real cook book

I come from a heavy D&D background you. And there is no endgame raiding in D&D. No balanced and competitive PvP in D&D. I'm not saying I don't enjoy raiding and PvP, I'm just saying these two features don't really exist in the traditional RPG. Actually they really only exist in the MMORPG genre. I could make a whole post about the differences in people who enjoy RPGs and not MMORPGs because MMOs really do take the role playing out of MMORPG.

 

The story has really kept me and my friends interested in this game. If they can find a way to tie it into endgame I'll be a happy camper, raiding and pvp are just a bonus. Swtor E-sports would be pretty cool too.

 

Edit: "basically we were being milked while being subjected to do NON-fun things in order to be able to get to something fun IN THE END of that effort."

 

This is the difference between me and you. The difference between the RPG player and the MMO player. What is subjectively nonfun to you is actually not nonfun to me lol. The experience up until the end or the adventure is what counts rather then what you get at the end of every quest or at the end of every raid boss. Grouping up and being social is the fun part. You take a single player approach to the game and that's where you fall short.

 

your proposition falls short - if you are having fun while doing things with your friends - just because you are doing things with your friends - then you can have much more fun while doing FUN things with your friends - instead of things which are cumbersome and repetitive.

 

you come from d&d background. i presume you have done tabletop gaming. tell me how fun would it be if you were obliged to shuffle/deal some cards at every dice roll. or obliged to similar repetitive timesink mechanisms put into gameplay ... it wouldnt be as much fun.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

OP's proposition is that his personal play style has changed, therefore everyone's play style has changed.

 

Fail.

OP's proposition is that his personal play style has changed, therefore everyone's play style has changed.

 

Fail.

 

Basically this.

 

I actually enjoy raiding with my friends, it's not just some lame 'grind' like the OP claims. I enjoy 4 - 5 hour sessions of insane boss battling that rewards us with some kick *** stuff.

 

WoW was skyrocketing in popularity back in the BC days when there was IN FACT GATED RAIDING TIERS. SO YOU ARE INCORRECT OP.

 

In fact, I have the opinion that PvP is lame and so is casual playing (crafting and alt-making). SO THEREFORE I AM CORRECT. :rolleyes:

Edited December 26, 2011 by Matteis

The main problem in having relatively fast leveling is that there often isnt enough so called endgame content for the players to consume.

 

It is important for an mmo to create " carrots" for people to aim for. If it is too easy to get these carrots then players often lose interest in the game because they feel like they have no goals for which to reach for.

 

Some examples of recent mmo´s that had a relatively poor endgame are:

 

Warhammer Online

Age of Conan

Star Trek Online

DC Universe Online

 

So Swtor better make sure that there is enough content at the endgame because that is what keeps players hooked to the game.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Tirpe

I saw the 600,000 lost and tuned out myself

 

Clearly OP talking about WOW and anyone thats played more MMORPGs then that game knows WOW is a exception to the MMORPG rule, NOT THE ACTUAL RULE.

 

Games have copied WOW formula and died out in weeks after release (ok not weeks but not long after), so this claim that because after 7 years WOW is losing its player base because of grinding is .... well I cant actually say what it is because of forum rules.

 

We need to educate ourselves on some established facts of MMORPGs before commenting on threads such as these.

 

We need to come to common ground on the established definitions for Timesink and Grind, and then move on to how these two methods are utilised to extend playtimes for the purpose of boosting subscription revenue.

 

Hopefully we will come away from that with an understanding that several methods used in Subscription Based MMORPGs are not intended for the enjoyment of players at all.

 

After we have ruminated on this new found knowledge, perhaps we could begin to discuss the methods and approach of Post World of Warcraft MMORPGs. I would start with Champions Online, Rift and move onto the statements and demos shown for Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World.

 

Perhaps then...perhaps...you may begin to understand some of the disappointment a portion of the public feels about the systems implemented in SWTOR and the way in which they have been implemented. Bringing out a game in 2012 with systems and methods years old doesn't really make me want to play it long term.

 

The market is changing. Even Blizzard realises that.

And Blizzard is quickly (in business terms) adjusting their game to meet the needs of this new market. I predict their next expansion would be more user friendly and have even less grinds (unless the player chooses to grind) and their systems will be more meaningful to players. From character progression to crafting and quests.

 

Blizzard isn't doing this because it feels its old systems are excellent, and a standard for MMORPGs in 2012. They are making these changes because these old systems have run their course and the gaming public isn't willing to endure them any more.

 

SWTOR on the other hand, in the same time frame, have adopted almost all of these old systems and have used them as the premise for a new MMORPG.

 

Even if you don't see future issues arising out of this, I do. And none of them are very good for SWTOR.

 

I believe we will start seeing more backlash against these old world MMORPG systems after the holidays in January 2012.

 

To help you out with an Analogy.

 

The top luxury car makers are moving to fuel injected engines with dual turbos. A few are going even further to hybrid Electric/petrol engine beasts that accelerate to 60 in about 7 seconds (at the low end). These are the New World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, and Rifts of the MMORPG world.

 

Then you have SWTOR, which uses a wildly popular brand name and franchise to decide they are going to introduce a new luxury car to the market. But this car will be carburetor only, naturally aspirated and non fuel injected. It'll have some luxury feel, but elements like navigation systems, connections for new fangled cell phones, and USB drives etc. won't be available.

 

Now there are some people that would love this "New" Old luxury car, and they'll buy it and enjoy it. At first, maybe many people will! But when they get out on the road and realise that its costing them more to do less compared to their friends zipping past them with their turbos and silently swishing up their driveways with their electric hybrids...something's going to snap...franchise or no franchise.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Gelos

Perhaps then...perhaps...you may begin to understand some of the disappointment a portion of the public

 

it seems, it is not a 'portion' of the public. for a long while now, casual gamers, or 'gamers' as in the sense of gamers circa 1990s, have been disappointed and estranged from gaming.

 

but now its inevitable and impossible to ignore as a trend - now the hardware and games are much more accessible, the indie games phenomenon has come up, and social games are now here. farmville only boasts 80 million players. civilization has gone online on facebook, and smartphones, tablets are here. these are already entry level game capable devices and they are at the hands of almost everyone.

 

in short, the gamer population has grown phenomenally. even id, valve talk about 'social games' these days, and say how they are watching the area with interest.

 

lets face it - as long as hardcore crowd that has come to being in between 2000-2008 may not like it, kick, scream and rant against it, there is no way to surpass this majority or overcome them.

 

and that is a good thing. this, will offset the corporization of games - the extreme mass-manufacturing (remodel textures, reskin models, launch as final scramshot XvII) of games in the format of 70% timesink, 30% content.

 

this will be good for everyone - both hardcore and the casual alike. granted, it is 100% certain that niche games for niche crowds will always exist - like eve. but, these can never overturn or offset the trend of the masses.

my apologies - i forgot to include a very important article link from slashdot, and therefore it may seem like i have talked out of my personal experiences. it is not as such. here is the missing part :

 

this tells us that tying the content of a game into high gated, long, grindfests are not something that gamers are stomaching anymore :

 

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/07/20/0349207/developer-panel-asks-whether-aaa-games-are-too-long

 

"Gamespot reports on a discussion at the Develop 2011 conference in which a panel of game designers debated whether recent big-budget releases like Heavy Rain and L.A. Noire were too long for a typical gamer's taste. Quoting: "'Gamers are losing patience,' said [Alexis Kennedy of Failbetter Games], when asked about his own experiences with Heavy Rain, 'so many people don't reach the end and lose the full impact of the story.' He wasn't complimentary of its narrative either, questioning the benefit of basing a game on long-form narrative such as film, resulting in a 'bastardized' storyline that doesn't quite work. ... The likes of social and casual games, particularly the cheap games available on mobile, have changed the expectations of gamers, the panel concluded. Since gamers are paying less money, there's less need to create 10-hour-plus gaming experiences, because consumers no longer feel shortchanged.""

 

 

I find it rather hilarious that everyone seems to have such a simpleminded view about what kind of game World of Warcraft is.

 

Casual players seem to consider World of Warcraft an elitist grindfest.

Hardcore players consider World of Warcraft to be pathetically easy and catering to the casuals.

PvE'rs think the World of Warcraft is ruined by all the PvP balance patches.

PvP'rs think World of Warcraft is ruined by all the PvE focus.

 

 

 

The truth is obviously that the developers behind World of Warcraft has always had to balance several mutually exclusive interests. From the very beginning the core of World of Warcraft has been about the blizzard mantra of 'easy to learn, hard to master', as it applies to an MMO it means that levelling to max level should be very casual friendly and a fun experience.

 

That's why they removed almost all death penalties, made it easy to solo the game etc. Then for the Hardcore players they made sure that there were plenty of 'hard' raids and eventually gave the PvP'rs their Arena for rated PvP.

 

Then it turns out that even casual players want something to do once they're max level, so Blizzard have been forced to look into more and more ways to get 'casuals' into the endgame, at the same time they need to make sure that the 'Hardcore' players have their own thing. This is what lead to 'heroic' dungeons/raids, the LFD tool etc etc, they're all ways of letting casual players also see the endgame content while letting the Hardcore players have true endgame.

 

It's important to remember that the interests of the Casuals, Hardcores, PvE'rs and PvP'rs ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, it is literally impossible to make everyone happy so all a developer can do is try to balance the interests as well as possible.

 

Anyone that believes that a new MMO will come out and magically solve all the issues that World of Warcraft has, is wonderfully naive. It's hilarious to watch the forums of all the new games and see how all breeds of players think that this time, even though it's been wrong all other times, but this time, they finally got a game just for them.

 

 

We need to educate ourselves on some established facts of MMORPGs before commenting on threads such as these.

 

We need to come to common ground on the established definitions for Timesink and Grind, and then move on to how these two methods are utilised to extend playtimes for the purpose of boosting subscription revenue.

Generally a Timesink is any part of the game where time is invested without much if any return. Generally excessive travel, dungeon lockouts, long cooldowns etc can be considered timesinks in an MMO. In singleplayer games good examples of Timesinks are sidequests and fetch quests.

 

Grinds are when you need to spend many hours on getting some kind of reward, good examples are any and all PvP reward systems, any and all reputation based reward systems etc.

 

The market is changing. Even Blizzard realises that.

And Blizzard is quickly (in business terms) adjusting their game to meet the needs of this new market. I predict their next expansion would be more user friendly and have even less grinds (unless the player chooses to grind) and their systems will be more meaningful to players. From character progression to crafting and quests.

 

Blizzard isn't doing this because it feels its old systems are excellent, and a standard for MMORPGs in 2012. They are making these changes because these old systems have run their course and the gaming public isn't willing to endure them any more.

Grinds are inevitable, the core of the issue is that content can only be produced at a limited rate, however your players are playing at a vastly higher rate. This means that you have to 'force' the players to repeatedly play the old content until you can release the new one.

 

The trick is to make the experience of playing the old content over and over satisfying and fun.

 

In general though, your posts contain a lot of texts, but you do not appear to say anything of substance.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Zironic

Hi.

 

This is your level 50 content:

 

Heroic Flashpoints (The same 8).

Operations (The same 3)

PvP (the same 3 warzones)

 

And this:

 

 

PvP (All picked up on the space station)

 

[Daily] March them Down -- Win 3 Warzone Matches

Rewards: creds and an epic PvP bag (the kind you buy for 200com/200merc)

 

[Weekly] Win 9 Warzone Matches

Rewards: creds 2 epic PvP bags and the choice between lower epic bag and the valor rank 60 bag

 

[Daily] Cutting the Cord -- Help the war effort on Ilum 5 times (Ilum warzone points captured)

Rewards: credits and epic PvP bag

 

[Weekly] Blacken the Ice -- Help the war effort on Ilum 15 times (Ilum warzone points captured)

Rewards: creds 2 epic PvP bags and the choice between lower epic bag and the valor rank 60 bag

 

 

Balmora Dailies (14xDaily Coms)

This series requires the completion of a Bonus series that starts on the space station, the quests are granted as you complete this series, take a few hours to do.

 

Credits earned from vendor items and quests after all Balmora dailys: 125k

Boss mobs each drop an epic item on 2 and 4 person quests.

 

{South} (8xDaily coms)

Balmora Daily South.jpg

 

[Daily] Invisible Threat -- Kill 10 stealth troopers and 2 commanders

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds

 

[Daily] Unintended Consequences -- Recover 3 wraith box components then use at terminal near end of bunker

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds, and companion rep

 

[Daily] Heroic +4 -- Kill Lord Raxxus

Rewards: 3xDaily com, creds, rep, pick between 2 armor enhance or a blue box

 

[Daily] Heroic +4 -- Destroy generators

Rewards: 3xDaily com, credits, rep, pick one item 4 lvl50 orange companion weps blue staff or blue lock box

 

{North} (6xDaily Coms)

Balmora Daily North.jpg

 

[Daily] Found in Translation -- Recover 24 weapons

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds, rep

 

[Daily] Ancient Transmissions -- Recover console key and use console

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds

 

[Daily] Reluctant Volunteers -- Capture savants 3

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds, rep

 

[Daily] Deadly Mutation -- Kill 5 creatures and destroy 5 equipment

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds, rep

 

[Daily] The Carriers of Xenovirus Prime -- Scan 4 cells in bunker

Rewards: 1xDaily com, creds, rep

 

[Daily] Heroic +2 -- Jill jedi master

Rewards: 3xDaily com, creds, rep, 1 choice of 2 purple mods or 1 blue lock box

 

 

Ilum Dailys (9xDaily Coms)

No companion rep is granted from this series.

Credits made: 95k

 

Ilum Dailys.jpg

 

[Daily] A Tightned Grip -- Kill 8 rep forces, obtain battle plans

Rewards: 1xDaily com, credits

 

[Daily] Defend the Shipment -- Kill waves of mobs after clicking box

Rewards: 1xDaily com, credits

 

[Daily] Operation Shatterstorm -- Click panels on com towers x5

Rewards: 1xDaily com, credits

 

[Daily] Rightful Owner -- Collect equipment boxes x5

Rewards: 1xDaily com, credits

 

[Daily] Sabotage -- Plant bomb on equip then defend

Rewards: 1xDaily com, credits

 

[Daily] +2 Poisonous Strategy -- Click control panel and kill jedi x2

Rewards: 3xDaily coms, credits, 1 choice between 4 epic enhancements or a blue box

 

 

Daily grind is alive a well

Uhm i don't get why you choose WoW as an example. WoW is build on grinding, nearly nothing else. You grind reputation, dungeon points, dailies etc. What wow realized is that people like to grind as long as a brain dead monkey can complete the content. Vanilla WoW wasn't that hard except for some raids but if they aren't hard in the beginning what's the reason to do it? Grind gear and not the satisfaction to finally down a boss. WoW made HC instance so easy you can do that stuff half a sleep.

 

Other genres implemented the Grind because no one likes it? Progression in the newer FPS is nothing more then Grinding Points for new equipment or perks.

 

There are issues with SWTOR, but i don't feel like i'am grinding in this game, between WZ, Shipmissons, FP, Class Quest, Normal Quests there is enough to do, and if you do some WZ and FP's you can basicly let half the boring side Quest be, because you overlevel the content quickly.

 

If this game will have longterm success will be determined by the end game content and if some needed changes are made.

Suddenly everyone is a gaming industries and trends expert with a focus on MMORPGs! Why!? Because they played them of course!

 

Oh I love the internet.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Vaegaknight

Grinds are inevitable, the core of the issue is that content can only be produced at a limited rate, however your players are playing at a vastly higher rate. This means that you have to 'force' the players to repeatedly play the old content until you can release the new one.

 

thats not correct.

 

you dont need to force players to do anything, if you introduce sandboxing into a game. a la, swg, or similar.

 

swg was so sandbox that, you could just decide to do something different, and get set on it and be busy with it months - and, your returns would totally be dependent on what you have already been doing at that moment, and immediate. you would not need to grind for weeks or months to get to something noticeable. moreover, in such an environment, everything changes, transforms because there are many people doing the same with you. so, someone you met while shooting some mobs to level your pistol skill up the day before, may have turned a manufacturer/trader a month later, and become a business partner. a few months later you may find yourself setting up a city with the same person.

 

this is the magic of sandboxing. once you let it out, content generates itself, and generation of that content is dependent on people, as they like it, as they want it, and how they want it.

 

The trick is to make the experience of playing the old content over and over satisfying and fun.

 

impossible. against human nature. if you do the same thing for the 9th time, novelty has long worn off.

 

In general though, your posts contain a lot of texts, but you do not appear to say anything of substance.

 

in contrast, you are some person who have been oblivious to the concept of sandboxing in games (which is very, VERY old by the way) - this did not prevent you from coming up and belitting someone else's post. that person had said much more than you, due to the disparage in between your knowledge arsenal.

 

if you want to comment, please go research sandboxing/sandbox/sandbox games first.

Suddenly everyone is a gaming industries and trends expert with a focus on MMORPGs! Why!? Because they played them of course!

 

Oh I love the internet.

 

actually some people do work in the industry, or its peripherals, or continually follow the developments from serious i.t. outlets like slashdot.org.

 

have you been doing that ?

I like how the TC's post was about how nobody wants to play detailed games anymore and just want everything super fast...then he goes and writes a 5 page essay about it.

actually some people do work in the industry, or its peripherals, or continually follow the developments from serious i.t. outlets like slashdot.org.

 

have you been doing that ?

 

Those people make up 0.01% of all people complaining or trying to sound like they actually know something.

 

Have I been doing that? No. I've been doing the intelligent, sensible thing and playing the games I enjoy, not playing the games I don't enjoy and not caring a god DAMN what people think in between. Thanks.

Those people make up 0.01% of all people complaining or trying to sound like they actually know something.

 

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/07/20/0349207/developer-panel-asks-whether-aaa-games-are-too-long

 

Have I been doing that? No. I've been doing the intelligent, sensible thing and playing the games I enjoy, not playing the games I don't enjoy and not caring a gosh darn what people think in between. Thanks.

 

or maybe you are just too self-focused/involved to be able to get interested in, or follow what goes on in your social subset of society.