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SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Round 1A: Beniboybling vs Cs_zoltan


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“Who will be the winners? Who will be the corpses? Audience, place your bets!”

 

Team Beniboybling vs Team Cs_zoltan

Count Dooku, Darth Maul & Savage Opress vs Mace Windu, Shaak Ti & Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

Welcome to Round 1A of the Quarter-Finals. For anyone new to the tournament, please look over the rules first before participating, and those who are familiar, you may which to remind yourselves of how it all works.

 

The battleground: Dagobah Swamp

 

Combatants start 25 meters apart outside Yoda's Hut.

 

Battlefield Notes:

 

 

  • Maul as of Revival

 

Rules of the Debate

 

 

  1. Victory by killing, KO’ing or otherwise incapacitating all of the opposing team.
     
     
  2. Combatants cannot hide or flee, though tactical retreats or attempts to lure the opponent are permitted.
     
     
  3. Combatant morals and personality traits apply, however they are all ready and willing to kill their opponents.
     
     
  4. All combatants are equipped with their standard arms and armament.
     
     
  5. Combatants do not possess any prior knowledge of their opponents beyond what they already know. But they are aware of the names of their combatants which are announced immediately before the fight.
     
     
  6. Any and all external Force nexuses or amplifiers are for the purposes of debate non-existent.
     
     
  7. Game mechanics are to be treated as canon, unless they exist purely for gameplay purposes.
     
     
  8. No flaming, trolling or aggressive debating, keep it chill people.

 

So without further ado, let the battle begin!

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Prequel Trilogy showdown :p

 

 

Matchups

 

This is the first time all of the combatant are from the same era, and they know each other pretty well. Because of that we can make a pretty safe assumption who will fight who.

 

Maul and Kenobi have a fairly big history. Maul killed Kenobi's master, Kenobi in turn chopped him in two. That duel haunted them both for over a decade. Maul hates Kenobi, he specifically plotted to exact revenge on him. Kenobi himself isn't disinterested in Maul either, he doesn't want to avenge his master, but he consideres Maul his responsibility. Furthermore he knows he has the best chance against him. Based on this I think they will find each other on the battlefield and duel it out.

You think you know me?! It was I who languished for years thinking of nothing but you. Nothing but this moment.

 

Dooku and Windu were a long time friends when Dooku was still part of the Jedi Order. Even after Dooku's departure they held each other in great respect. After the battle of Geonosis they became sort of a rivals. Most considered them each other's equals, and Mace also felt that the Clone Wars was his fault, because he didn't kill Dooku when he had the chance. After that he know he can't stop the war with a single death, Dooku's death, but he always thought that the capture or elimination of Dooku is a high priority.

Dooku being a very confident man wouldn't shy away to duel his old friend, his rival, and his equal. So I think it's a fair assessment that they too will want to fight each other.

Ah, Master Windu. Still so confident that one man can change the galaxy?

 

The leftovers are Shaak Ti and Savage. They never actually met. Shaak Ti's only knowledge is based on Kenobi's and Anakin's reports. Savage on the other hand can only know Ti if Maul told him about her. IF.

Depending on the flow of the battle they could either duel it out, or join one of the other 2 duels.

 

Kenobi vs Maul

 

Well this is gona be hard to resist, but I'll try to make an argument that doesn't involve their previous encounters at the start.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi is one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists of the entire mythos. He mastered several lightsaber forms. These include Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Shien, Niman and Jar'Kai. All of these give him something useful in combat. Shii-Cho allows him to fight outnumbered, and make his offense unpredictable. Soresu makes his defense nigh impenetrable. Ataru gives him a very solid offensive form that has a ridiculous synergy with Soresu. Shien allows him to be better at switching from defense to offense and vica versa. Niman allows him to successfully incorporate force attack into his lightsaber sequences.

 

His Soresu/Ataru pairing is highly effective. Soresu lacks offense, Ataru lacks defense. Perfect. Beyond that his unparalleled Soresu is so minimalistic and simple that it complements the taxing offense of Ataru. Throw in the mix his moving meditation and proficient force sense, and he is close to unbeatable in a pure lightsaber combat.

 

He pretty much has answer to anything, you can't really surprise him with anything. True to that statement he defeated various enemies that have nothing in common. He beat Darth Vader, a Djem So power duelist. Is Maul stronger than Kenobi? He might. Is that enough? No. He beat General Grievous, who could attack up to, and probably beyond, 20 strikes per second. Is Maul faster than Kenobi? He might. Is that enough? No.

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

 

To complement his already impressive arsenal of lightsaber forms, he mastered other techniques that can help him in this encounter.

He is pretty much a master of Sokan. He can use and abuse the environment, which he did numerous times to great effect. He is also a proficient unarmed combatant. He even fought lightsaber wielding opponents with his bare hands. He also mastered Tae-Jitsu, incorporating physical strikes and kicks into his lightsaber sequence.

He was also a tactical genius, he proved this several times in large scale battles as well as in small scale duels.

“A fight is never a goal in itself. Sometimes it is simply a distraction from the true goal, and best countered with a larger distraction."

 

Windu vs Dooku

 

By numerous sources they are placed on the same level. This might be the most interesting, and closest duel in this tournament. Whoever gains the edge it will be by no means big.

Only Master Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him [Dooku.]

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his [Dooku's] equal on neutral ground.

In the following section I will prove why Mace Windu has the aforementioned slight edge.

 

Lightsaber combat

Dooku mastered a single lightsaber form. Makashi. But he did so to the highest degree, making him the best Form II user ever. He also knew the other forms enough to teach them to Jedi Padawans, and to identify them, and analyze their weaknesses.

Mace Windu mastered all seven lightsaber forms, but he didn't make the mistake of spreading himself too thin. He was the ultimate master of Form VII. He took Juyo, the hardest form and improved it. This is how Vaapad came to be. Vaapad is the perfected Juyo, but it's also more than that. Vaapad is not just a lightsaber form, it's a mentality, and a conduit (more on that later).

Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh is not well known. Powerful Form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."

Vaapad comes with it's own move sets, which means Dooku has no way to analyze it and exploit

weaknesses. He will have to rely on his own skill of Makashi, which Windu also mastered.

 

So we have the best user of Form II and the best user of Form VII in this duel. They are also stated to be each others equal numerous times. So by the virtue of Form VII is stated to be "better" than Form II, I say Mace has the slight edge in terms of lightsaber combat.

 

Force abilities

Dooku was stated to be the most powerful Jedi behind Yoda, and that he became even stronger as a Sith Lord. On the other hand Mace also grew after Dooku left the order. Does this mean Dooku is more powerful in the force? Probably. Does this mean he can toy around with Windu? Hardly.

In ligthsaber combat Dooku mostly only used lightning and TK. Dooku is simply doesn't outclass Windu to the extent to ragdoll him. Best he can do is push him. But that cuts both ways, Windu is just as likely to force push Dooku, which his mastery over Niman would make it likely.

In regard to Force Lightning Windu can more than handle it. Worse case scenario he can block it with his lightsaber. Even a well before prime Kenobi was able to do this. Or better yet he can channel it away with Vaapad:

Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness.

Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Now let's see what Windu has up his sleeve that sets him apart from Dooku:

Shatterpoint. The ability to see fault lines in objects, people, events. Thanks to this ability Mace can exploit any weakness of Dooku and can manipulate the engagement to his own ends.

Vaapad. The other half of the deadly lightsaber form. This technique made Mace a conduit for the darkness. He could channel his own, as well as his opponents dark side energy:

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow;

Based on these 2 rare powers yet again I think Mace gets the edge.

 

 

Shaak Ti vs Savage

 

Shaak Ti is a legendary Jedi Master, who is just as deadly with the lightsaber as with the force. She mastered Makashi and Ataru. She was one of the best duelist of her era, which is an impressive accomplishment, considering that almost every form had it's best user in that era. Fisto, Dooku, Kenobi, Yoda, Anakin, and Windu were all the best of their respective forms. Not just in this era, but all eras. Being part of that elite speaks for itself.

Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the force.

Shaak Ti's lightsabre movements were fluid and graceful, making the most of her enhanced spatial awareness. Few escaped her deadly swirling blade.

He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku.

Her power in the force was also exceptional, only the best of the best could hope to defeat her.

Her force augmentation was such, that she could smash Magnaguards with a single kick, she ran faster than a train when she was exhausted, she was also faster and stronger than Darth Vader's secret apprentice Galen Marek.

Her endurance was also remarkable. She could survive a blaster shot to the chest, she shrugged of hits from Magnaguards electrostaff, that made other masters cry out in pain, and she survived a heavy beating from Grievous twice.

Her tutaminis was so profound, that she could catch lightsaber strikes and powerful force lightning, albeit temporarily. But not being outright overwhelmed by a lightning that was potent enough to one shot an AT-AT is impressive in itself.

Her offensive powers were strong enough to overwhelm even Galen Marek with TK and Kinetite.

Only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!

You [Galen Marek] will need the full power of the dark side to defeat her. Do not disappoint me.

So what advantages and counters Shaak Ti has against opponents such as Savage? Well I start with lightsaber combat:

Makashi is the lightsaber to lightsaber form. It puts emphasis on footwork to outmaneuver opponents, fluidity, precision, and economy of motion. It is also an effective form to counter force users. Savage was only trained for a couple of months under Dooku and Maul, hardly enough time to master any form. He most likely relied on his physical prowess to overwhelm his opponents. Which won't happen here. We have seen the likes of Adi Gallia and unarmed Dooku dodging his blows with varying ease. Shaak Ti has experience with similar weapons in the form of Magnaguard's electrostaff. She also has her natural Togruta senses to help her avoid such strikes. If that won't happen she is capable of meeting power blows. She could block numerous Magnaguards with one hand each. She could also send Galen Marek flying with a single strike. I'm not saying she will shrug off Savage's blows, but it will hardly be her undoing.

On the other hand Savage's lack of skill against an accomplished Makashi master will be hard to overcome. The precision of the form will allow Ti to overcome Savage's rudimentary bladework or even disarm him by cutting his double bladed saber in half. Savage's physical strength will help him bridge the gap by some degree, but it won't be a trump card.

Makashi: "Ah -a technique that helps one resist the Force attacks of an enemy, and is also excellent for lightsaber combat. It does more damage, but it leaves you vulnerable to other attacks. Use it against others wielding the Force or lightsabers... but not against anyone else."

In terms of force powers I'd like to point out that Galen Marek, a fairly powerful force user, could barely use any power beside saving his own hide. Ti's deadly offense leaves little room for Savage to bring his powers to bear. Even if he manages to do so, Makashi's force resistance, Ti's tutaminis, and her endurance combined can overcome anything Savage throws at her (literally and figuratively).

 

 

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Who vs Who: Positioning & Placement

 

Suffice to say I don’t at all disagree with Zoltan’s matchups, so no need to debate that.

 

And I’ll be the first to admit that Savage vs Shaak Ti is a mismatch and not the least bit favourable to Opress, for while powerful enough to hold his own the likelihood of him defeating her is slim.

 

However that doesn’t mean my team will lose, instead as soon as Savage falters, Maul will step in to save him, essentially switching out. Maul values Savage him as an apprentice, a brother and an ally needed to win, he’s not going to sacrifice him to press the attack against Kenobi, which would kill them both. With that in mind I’ll elaborate on the particulars of each initial matchup and at the same time, counter some of the arguments that Zoltan has made.

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Initial Engagements

 

Count Dooku vs Mace Windu

 

It goes without saying that both Dooku and Windu are exceptional lightsaber duellists, and I reaffirm what Zoltan has said, that they are been regarded as equals.

 

However Zoltan is erroneously concluding that Windu has a slight edge by wielding a superior form. Yoda may claim that Vaapad is the “deadliest” of all forms but this does not make it the best, merely the most effective killing form, the most destructive and the most vicious. But the most effective form for winning a lightsaber duel? By Zoltan's own omission it's Makashi, and he's has overlooked is that Dooku has beaten Windu's Vaapad with this form already:

 

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him [Windu] in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

 

--Taken from Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Now considering they have been stated to be equals, its likely Windu has outsparred Dooku just as many times. But I’d remind everyone that this was when Dooku was a Jedi, and as a Sith Lord he grew notably more powerful.

 

In his current state will find the count much more of a challenge.

 

That said I’m not going to afford a firm advantage in any in this category, merely make the point that Dooku is every bit Windu’s match, despite his Vaapad mastery and regardless it would appear, of his abilities with Shatterpoint. However while they are equals in skill, Dooku is undeniably the more powerful Force user.

 

For one Dooku has been regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order’s history:

He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history, yet at the age of seventy Dooku's principles would no longer allow him to serve a Republic in which political power was for sale to the highest bidder.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

An accolade that Windu has never received, and on top of that was regarded by Master Yoda to be their greatest student presumably of the current era, prior to him leaving the Order:

"Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

 

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

And considering that Windu is younger than Dooku, it is very likely he is considered among these students.

 

Yes, Zoltan is correct that the edge is not so great that Dooku can turn the tables with his telekinesis and his Force lightning, but he forgets that Dooku’s superior strength in the Force will translate into superior Force augmentative abilities as well, making him stronger, faster, more agile, possessing superior reflexes and precognitive abilities in comparison to his opponent. Abilities that again have increased since their sparring matches:

This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:

 

Once a great Jedi master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

“Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you.”

 

--Yoda in Episode II: Attack of the Clones

Windu may have grown stronger as well, but there is never any indication to such a significant level, and I’d remind everyone this is on top of Dooku’s natural growth. Finally Dooku has better Sokan i.e using the environment to to his advantage, something Dooku does frequently, whereas Windu focuses on purely martial victory.

 

That said I will not overstate Dooku’s advantage, Windu remains a prodigious Force user himself, and any advantage Dooku has will be minor. The battle between Dooku and Windu is likely to go on the longest, and in that respect, is of the least significance, as the outcume will likely be decided by the success or failure of their allies.

 

However I would merely make the point that the likelihood of Dooku making a mistake and being cut down by Windu before the other engagement are done, is slim, and far more likely to happen to Windu. Therefore if anyone is going to be in a position to assist their allies after winning this battle, it is going to be Dooku.

Edited by Beniboybling
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Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

While Kenobi has held his own against Maul in the past, this match is a forgone conclusion. Zoltan seems to think Kenobi is unbeatable in lightsaber combat, but that’s obviously not true. There are those who can beat Kenobi, namely those who are better than him, and Maul is one of these people. First off let’s look at pure skill before addressing stylistic advantages, tactics and the like. Zoltan claims Kenobi is one of the most skilled duellists in history, and a mastery of multiple lightsaber forms, but does so as if Maul is not just the same. He is:

Darth Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order.

 

--Taken from Star Wars: Character Encyclopaedia

 

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the battle for Naboo.

 

--Taken from Star Wars - Fact Files #01

And on top of that was a confirmed master of Juyo, Niman and Jar’Kai.

 

Juyo itself demanding that one have mastered multiple other forms to wield it:

Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

And with Niman incorporating all seven forms of lightsaber combat it Maul is every bit as versatile as Kenobi, and just as able to answer everything his opponent throws at him. Altogether in terms of pure skill, Kenobi has no advantage.

 

Now let’s observe the means Kenobi might employ to take down his opponent.

 

On one hand he could attempt to overpower Maul by going on the offensive and using his mastery over Ataru. But the strategy employed by Ataru is to overwhelm one’s opponents through superior speed, strength and agility, and Kenobi has none of those advantages against Maul, instead it’s the opposite.

 

First off I’d point out that before his prime, Maul was able to hold off the Ataru onslaught of Qui-Gon and Kenobi both for a prolonged period, exhausting Jinn opponent as he failed to penetrate Maul's perfect defence:

 

 

An excerpt from the fight itself that highlights as such:

The three combatants fought their way across the hangar floor, lightsabers flashing, bringing to bear every skill they had acquired over the years. The Jedi Knights tried continually to press the attack, and indeed, the Sith Lord was moving away from the Naboo and the starfighters and back toward the hangar's far wall. But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.

 

Qui-Gon pressed hard in the beginning, sensing how dangerous this man was, wanting to put an end to the combat quickly. Long hair flying out behind him, he attacked with ferocity and determination. Obi-Wan came with him, following his lead. They had fought together before, and they knew each other's moves. Qui-Gon had trained Obi-Wan, and while the younger Jedi was not yet his equal, he believed that one day Obi-Wan would be better than he had ever been.

 

So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly I discovered that their best efforts were not good enough to achieve an early resolution. They settled into a pattern then, working as a team against their enemy, waiting for an opening. But the Sith Lord was too smart to give them one, and so the battle had gone on.

 

--Taken from The Phantom Menance novelisation

And secondly I’d highlight how Kenobi is physically outclassed by Maul. Zoltan seems to think that this is questionable, but things like moving faster than even Force sensitives to properly track, appearing invisible to holocameras, capable of tearing out the heart of a wampa and shattering spines without Force augmentation. Is far beyond anything Kenobi has shown. That's what comes with superior strength in the Force and perfect physique.

 

And in terms with his skill with Ataru I’d remind everyone that Maul is among the most skilled swordsman in Sith history, and Qui-Gon Jinn, himself regarded as among the best swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever produced, could not defeat him. What reason do we have to believe Kenobi is a better master of Ataru than Jinn?

 

Simply put Maul will have no trouble handling Kenobi’s onslaught, an onslaught which would merely result in him exhausting himself and subsequently overwhelmed by Maul’s Juyo, and the greater strength he’ll put behind it. Could Kenobi handle the onslaughts of General Grievous and Anakin Skywalker? Yes. But not after exhausting himself, and not without extensive knowledge of Anakin’s every possible move, and with a form perfectly gauged towards Grievous’ particular style, which I’d remind everyone nonetheless eventually overwhelmed his defences:

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks - sixteen per second, eighteen - until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Kenobi’s other option is to go on the defensive, however this will merely delay the inevitable. Soresu is only an effective strategy for Kenobi if he succeeds in exhausting his or frustrating his opponent, making them leave a gap in their defence. However neither will happen in Maul’s case, instead Kenobi will be met with the opposite.

 

First of all Maul has excellent stamina, and is far superior to Kenobi in this respect. To demonstrate this I’ll refer back to the trials Maul had to endure under Sidious:

Let's start with Maul, who at the age of 10 was left stranded on Mustafar with nothing but his training and the clothes of his back, for 17 days, he slept only twice during this period. And that was just the beginning, for his final test:

Sidious and Maul returned to Mustafar. For fourteen days, Sidious put Maul through a series of grueling physical tests. Maul defended himself against lightsaber wielding droids in the training room. Blindfolded, he threw daggers at robotic targets, which threw the daggers back at him. He was blindfolded again before he climbed into a starship flight simulator wired with disciplinary electrodes. He wore a sensory-deprivation suit when he ran through a maze that was lined with razor-edged walls, and also when he was deposited into a previously unexplored Mustafarian cave. In locked chambers, he was exposed to extreme temperatures and deprived of food. For each test, he drew strength from the dark side of the Force.

 

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

However this was merely the first stage of his ordeal:

 

When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord."

 

Maul willed his body to remain standing.

 

"I am sending you to a planet in the Outer Rim," Sidious continued. "It is made up of three kinds of terrain. Desert, swamp and mountains. You will have at least three matches on each terrain. I have sent a fleet of assassin droids to attack you. Each is programmed with different strategies. Some will work together. Some will work alone. They are all are programmed to kill."

 

Maul turned to face his master. Although Maul remained silent, the fire in his eyes betrayed his surprise. And his excitement.

 

Sidious noticed Maul's reaction. "That is correct. I am prepared to lose what I most value. So must you be to become a Sith. You must be prepared to lose your own life in order to win.

 

Maul nodded. "I understand, my Master."

 

"You will have to survive for a month," Sidious added. "You will only have a survival pack."

 

Despite his exhaustion, Maul felt exhilarated. He was determined to prove he was the best apprentice in the history of the Sith.

 

...

 

The assassin droids were relentless. Programmed to fight to the death, they had blasters built into their chests and hands. No matter how hard Maul tried to conceal himself or his desperately improvised camps, the droids found him. They never slept, never allowed Maul to sleep for very long, never hesitated before they pounced. When Maul did manage to rest and recover, he fell asleep knowing he would be awakened by an attack.

 

The droids drove him into the frozen mountains and across the burning deserts. Maul's survival pack was torn from his back and lost in one battle. And after twenty days, Maul realized he was at risk of losing something else. His mind.

 

Because the attacks never stopped.

 

Maul was beyond paranoid. He had reason to believe that every sound, every shape, and every shadow on Hypori was a potential threat.

 

He grew thin and his strength began to ebb. He foraged for food when he could. Life was scarce on Hypori, but he found a few small animals, killed them, and ate them raw, because he dared not risk building a fire that would attract more droids.

 

It was when he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages. The wound festered. The pain was blinding. He listened for approaching droids but heard none. The days blurred, but Maul was almost certain that a full month had passed since he had arrived on Hypori. As he fell into and out of restless sleep, Maul began to wonder if his Master had forgotten him.

 

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul not only survived this trial, but summoned the strength to attack and press his Master:

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

 

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

 

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck, he thought, I'm going to kill him.

 

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

 

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Do you really think cushy Temple life compares? Even their combined battlefield experience wouldn't give them comparable levels of stamina. Sidious trained his apprentice to physical perfection, he will not tire.

This example is particularly relevant, because it demonstrates the potency of Maul's rage, which will only increase as Kenobi prolongs the engagement, more than making up for physical exhaustion, it only makes him stronger.

 

On top of that, Maul actually hates Kenobi more than he does Sidious. A reminder:

You may have forgotten me, but I will never forget you. You cannot imagine the depths I would go to stay alive, fuelled by my singular hatred for you.

 

-- Darth Maul in Revenge

 

"I believe Maul's rage was so powerful, and his knowledge of the dark side so great, he simply refuse to die..."

 

--Obi-Wan Kenobi in The Sith Hunters

With that hate just waiting to explode, and with Maul’s fury building as Kenobi continues to persist in living right, he is just going to get stronger and stronger. Strong enough to stagger Sidious with his attacks, and then some.

 

Juyo, unlike Grievous' hybrid form or Anakin's Djem So, being stated to be ferocious enough to dismantle Soresu:

…it’s attacks can eviscerate defences – even the blocks of a Form III master

 

--Taken from The Jedi Path

And you can be sure Maul will generate the power to excavate Kenobi’s guts.

 

To summarise, if Kenobi goes offensive he’ll exhaust himself in a failed attempt to break through Maul’s defence, and if he plays defensive, it will backfire, Maul growing stronger instead of weaker, and inevitably destroying him.

 

What Zoltan has completely overlooked though is Force abilities. Conveniently I would think, as at any moment Maul is capable of telekinetically dominating Kenobi, like he does here:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg

 

And later again here:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4254062-tcw+maul+obiwan.gif

 

And finally here, literally blowing him away with a Force push:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4291206-fdgfdgnbn.gif

 

Does Kenobi really stand a chance against an opponent who can dominate him in this manner? I think not, especially if Maul succeeds in knocking him unconscious, or runs him through on his lightsaber.

 

In the contexts of the battle at large, what it means is that Kenobi will simply be in no position to detain Maul when he moves to bail out his brother. Really I can think of no reason as to how Kenobi is to prevent him aiding Savage.

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Savage Opress vs Shaak Ti

 

As I said before, I don’t see Savage winning this, however he is more than capable of holding his own, and I wouldn’t expect this to be a blitz by any stretch. Zoltan has already raised arguments relating to his performance against Galen Marek, however after consideration I believe its fair to bring these feats into question.

 

Allow to elaborate on that front. According to one source:

The Dark Side was strong on Felucia, and Shaak Ti was a beacon in that Darkness.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed graphic novel

And on this basis it’s been assume that Felucia wouldn’t have amplified her powers.

 

However Marek’s own experiences from the novel paint a somewhat different picture:

She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it, to remind it of its proper place in the universe. The light side had held sway for far too long. It was time to redress the issue. Killing Shaak Ti would do that quite nicely.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed novel

It is obvious that Shaak Ti is sustaining the light side on Felucia, but the novel, as shown, differs concerning it's alignment. Clearing stating that Ti had successfully shifted the balance of the Force to the light. I’m inclined to side with the novel as generally the most accurate medium, this being Marek’s first-hand experience, that the dark side was weak, not strong. And if that is the case not only would Marek have been weakened but Shaak Ti empowered.

 

Even if that is not entirely the case however, Marek also observes the following:

Getting to her, however, was proving to be something of a problem. Although he had sensed her clearly from orbit as a deformation in the Force, much like a body of mass deformed the fabric of space-time, he hadn't anticipated the dense flows he would encounter on the surface. The entire jungle was alive with the Force, from the tiniest spore to the mightiest rancor, and the Felucians themselves were alive with it, too-so alive, in fact, that they tapped into the Force as naturally as humans breathed an oxygen-rich atmosphere. That made them dangerous to him, the Sith apprentice who had come to crush the regime Shaak Ti had nurtured on Felucia.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed novel

Marek essentially describes Felucia as a planet incredibly rich in the living Force, so rich that the Felucians can draw on it for strength. Under Ti’s “regime” these Felucians are of the light, and Ti herself has been communing with the planet for two whole decades. If they can draw it’s ambient energies for strength, why not Ti?

 

On the other hand Marek is never stated to draw on this power, and instead the description suggests that it is repulsive to him. Altogether I think it valid to bring Shaak Ti’s feats on Felucia into question as enhanced by a nexus. And I don’t believe it's sufficient proof that Ti can overwhelm Savage as quickly or even quicker.

 

On the other hand Savage Opress has proven himself to a Jedi Council level adversary, in terms of accolades he was considered a significant threat to the Jedi by multiple sources:

After winning a competition among his Nightbrothers, Savage Opress is transformed by Nightsisters magic into a terrifying opponent for the Jedi.

 

--Taken from Ultimate Star Wars

 

However, Dooku and Asajj Ventress discover that their creation has a will of his own, and that he has grown more powerful than either of them had anticipated – perhaps even more powerful than the combined forces of the Jedi and the Sith.

 

--Taken from The Must-See Conclusion to an Epic Three-Part Clone Wars Arc, StarWars.com

 

“You consider him a threat?”

 

“He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi.”

 

--Count Dooku speaking with Grievous

And though the statement from StarWars.com is obvious hyperbole, collectively the point is clear, Savage is considerably powerful, and not a threat the Order can simply squash by sending some high-level Jedi i.e. Shaak Ti, to deal with. Or rather Plo Koon, among the greatest Jedi in the Order, whom he holds his own against:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4629193-1925290811-46253.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4629194-6620531772-46253.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4629195-3775890957-46253.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4629196-9216374468-46253.jpg

 

And then proceeds to defeat by virtue of superior speed:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4629197-7533365610-46252.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4629198-1569926798-46252.jpg

 

It is obvious Savage is a force to be reckoned with, and not easily batted aside. He also has several tools at his disposal that he can use to hold him own against Ti. Namely his weapon, his armour and explosive Force powers.

 

In terms of his weapon, Savage’s the large surface area of his saberstaff affords him a natural defence, in the hands of the skilled has been described as impenetrable:

The saberstaff is ideal for defeating multiple opponents as well as for defending against blaster fire. The broad energy barrier created by a whirling saberstaff is impenetrable when deployed by a skilled Sith Lord…

 

--Taken from The Rule of Two in Book of Sith

And given that Savage has received instruction from both Dooku and Maul, two exceptional lightsaber duellists, and held his own against the exceptional ability of Plo Koon, I think it stands to reason he fits the criteria of “skilled.”

 

If any attacks get through however, nothing short of dismemberment will slow him down, his lightsaber-resistant armour defiending against glancing blows, with minor injuries only enraging and empower him, case in point:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmbMZyvdYtM&t=1m35s

 

Which brings us on to Savage’s final asset, his explosive Force abilities. The above being one example Savage is prone to impulsive and powerful outbursts that have swept the likes of Maul, Dooku, and Skywalker of their feet:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625105-savage+force+repulse.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4629378-2238739133-ezgif.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625231-savage+uses+force+wave.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625311-star+wars+-+darth+maul+-+death+sentence+%232+011.jpg

 

If Savage is pressed he will resort to these abilities, and Shaak Ti too will be blown away. I’m not wholly convinced that Makashi provides an effective defence against Force abilities, as this never appears so in practice, or is mentioned in any other source, from my point of view it seems a game mechanic. On the other hand Ti’s style is undeniably aggressive and focused on augmenting martial ability rather than defenses with the Force.

 

In that respect I wouldn’t believe Ti invulnerable, and such displays as Savage can pull off will give him time to recover, regain the offensive or enlist Maul’s help. Altogether Shaak Ti is going to have a more prolonged engagement on her hands, as opposed to a blitz, giving Maul due time to intervene when Savage falters.

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Whatever could be the matter? :)

 

The complete changing of stances on past debates just to suit you here?... Very dissapointed :jawa_mad:

 

No matter, there's numerous flaws in those arguments and I'm sure Zoltan can find them :jawa_evil:

Edited by Selenial
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The complete changing of stances on past debates just to suit you here?... Very dissapointed :jawa_mad:

 

No matter, there's numerous flaws in those arguments and I'm sure Zoltan can find them :jawa_evil:

Mmm, assume your referring to Shaak Ti, however that's what I turned up after doing some research.
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