The way tanks and healers stack, with their mutual healing and guarding, is a little too much. Not saying that tanks and/or healers should be nerfed to death, but some CD on guard swap or the like would be highly welcome.

(I know, I know. This topic will attract mainly tanks and healers who will post that they are absolutely fine; that it's everybody else who is terribad; that everybody but them needs to l2p; and that in particular me, the starter of this topic, is a huge baddie and should stop playing this game for good. What d'you wanna do? It's the way these forums work.)

Guard, is greatly contributing to turn the synergy Tank/Heal almost unbreakeable, in regs. Of course.

But was not Guard always a good skill?

Have other classes not strong, and characteristic skills too?

What changed that just recently, Tanks and Heals appeared as a monster problem, for any non premade?

Why not Tanks guarding any other classes are not considered OP combination?

Thats because of healing multipliers. They are Op. Not Guard.

Anyways, aplying a CD or something can perhaps do some good. It would certainly get things more dynamic.

I do agree with you to an extent, that in regs and solo ranked it's often difficult to communicate effectively enough but as repeatedly seen in 4's, guard isn't op, nor do dps have trouble killing healers and tanks. I do not think the game should be balanced around regs, nor do I believe dps needs to be buffed, or guard redesigned. I guess I am saying it's partly l2p as those "better" at their dps class seem to do fine taking down healers and tanks.

I'm not sure empowering dps even more than they recently have is the answer, eventually you've gotta look at yourself.

Here's what should be done in WZs (8v8):

1) Put a cap on the number of support roles a team can have. No more than 3 support roles can be on a team, and no more than 2 of those can be healers. This has the drawback of longer queue times for those roles. To fix that, read on.

2) Give us the ability to change disciplines and utilities at the start of a WZ. Only at the start. However, you cannot switch to a tank or a healer if the support cap limit on your team has been reached.

This would solve the queue issue with putting a cap on support roles, AND it would also help in making sure team comps are as even as possible because people would have the ability to switch to healer or tank or dps, depending on what the team needed.

The only drawback is it basically requires everyone to switch to dps disciplines when they queue, then switch back as necessary. But that minor inconvenience might be a small price to pay to get balanced games.

I do agree with you to an extent, that in regs and solo ranked it's often difficult to communicate effectively enough but as repeatedly seen in 4's, guard isn't op, nor do dps have trouble killing healers and tanks. I do not think the game should be balanced around regs, nor do I believe dps needs to be buffed, or guard redesigned. I guess I am saying it's partly l2p as those "better" at their dps class seem to do fine taking down healers and tanks.

 

I'm not sure empowering dps even more than they recently have is the answer, eventually you've gotta look at yourself.

Right. DPS is top. They are doing just fine - says "the best node guard healer".

This is kind of thing is only possible after a dozen of patches, buffing sorcs/Sages.

People are saying L2P to Maras/Sents for months. Before and still after Combat Team apologised to players who liked that classes, for they left it underrepresented.

Sorry, but it is a L2P issue.

If people are letting the tank and healer stay with in guard range and not trying to separate them then they are doing their job wrong.

If people don't realize that they can stun, interrupt, push, pull or whatever to a healer to keep them from casting or to get them out of guard range then they are doing their job wrong.

If people are just mindlessly beating on the tank while the healer free casts, they're doing their job wrong.

If people don't understand the mechanics of their class, or of other classes, then guess what? Yep they're doing their job wrong and need to learn how to play in order to compensate for, or eliminate, any difficulties that they might come across int heir matches.

I play a DPS Sorc, a Jug Tank, and a Operative Healer, so I have a stake in the holy trinity. I strictly pug, so no pre-made PvP groups.

Personally, I think heals are a bit too overpowering at the moment. Look at the amount of healing that can be produced by one healer, and it usually is 1.5x to 2.0x the "average" damage amount in a warzone. Throw on top of that a tank that actually tanks and uses guard and taunts effectively, it can be very tough. But, it's not really the guard aspect that's overpowering, it's the ability to heal through massive damage anyway that's the issue.

Do we just want to nerf healing? Unsure about that since healers aren't common (devs said they usually are 20% of the population). Not sure we want to nerf tanks, since true tanks (not the DPS "tanks") are pretty rare as well (I'd venture a guess that it's 10% of PvP population). We probably have 70% of the population as DPS, so clearly we have to find incentives for people to play healers and tanks. If that results in them being a tad overpowered when paired together and played properly, then that's the solution. If we had a ton of tanks and healers in every warzone, then we could probably tone something down.

Cretinus, I think that the root cause of your complaints is not the abilities of the class, your problem is going against a coordinated premade pair or a full 4, and that caveat extends to any role you want to pick.

What you are not taking into account is that either tank or healer needs to stand a chance to do stuff when they load without each other or do not have a synergy.

Four coordinated DPS can finish off a guarded healer in a blink.

A healer, no matter guarded or not, cannot heal through 3 DPS focus; or through well executed swaps by the teams of aggressive, VOIP DPS.

A tank, even with a pocket healer, will go down under high burn.

Nerfing tanks and heals will simply eliminate the ability of these support classes to function in a non-premade environment.

The tank’s ability to swap guard, the healer’s ability to triage is countered by the DPS ability to retarget in a coordinated manner. That’s the design, that’s the intent, and nerfing the very essence of the other roles in favor of the DPS role, I don’t think it’s right.

If you can find it in yourself to not begrudge other players to play support roles, please do so.

Matchmaking at least for healers could fix it, but apparently even one role matchmaking is too advanced for them. They just don't have the tech!

Let's put 0 heals pug vs two fully packed premades. Yeah that's good for them, so fun...

wwwwaaaiiitt. Cretinus is back on his route!

Here's what should be done in WZs (8v8):

 

1) Put a cap on the number of support roles a team can have. No more than 3 support roles can be on a team, and no more than 2 of those can be healers. This has the drawback of longer queue times for those roles. To fix that, read on.

 

2) Give us the ability to change disciplines and utilities at the start of a WZ. Only at the start. However, you cannot switch to a tank or a healer if the support cap limit on your team has been reached.

 

This would solve the queue issue with putting a cap on support roles, AND it would also help in making sure team comps are as even as possible because people would have the ability to switch to healer or tank or dps, depending on what the team needed.

 

The only drawback is it basically requires everyone to switch to dps disciplines when they queue, then switch back as necessary. But that minor inconvenience might be a small price to pay to get balanced games.

You do realize that you heavily penalize hybrid classes by doing that, right ? Except for Marauders & Snipers which an only be dps... the rest of the pack is actually hybrid across the board. So unless you plan on making everyone play something different in order to prevent a Queue drought ... I suggest you rethink your first point.

It really is from lack of matchmaking which I don't think we will ever get.

When one team has a healer and a tank and the other doesn't; you could kill the healer still by separating them but you are sitting there with all DPS, probably some ranged DPS that is going to get LOS, so it is up to melee DPS. OK; so you have melee DPS do it and they are going to be isolated with lack of support from the ranged DPS due to the LOS, odds are, if the enemy DPS is any good, without a healer or guard, the pressure on the healer can be melted much faster than they can sperate them from the tank and do anything serious to the healer.

Of course, if you had a ton of melee DPS to do it fast enough by really focusing that healer, you can obviously do it but you all are going to take a beating in the mean time and not have a healer to be able to get health back up, and before you turn know it in 8s, the healer will be back. Isn't this why there has been a thing to use CC in order to cap, particularly back when there was 8s ranked?

I know there are times when an all DPS team has won that fight, but this is assuming equal skill and people peeling and supporting each other which doesn't require a premade yet is somehow rare with the average PUG.

Remember that a nerf to heals and tanks affects your side as well, OP. With an underpowered healer struggling to keep your side's tank alive, they'll have no spare heals for topping up your DPS. - Just saying.

Best group up with a few friends, allies, or guild-mates: MMO 101.

Guard needs to be removed, period. Tanks should actively protect healers by taunting and peeling. This 'fire and forget' damage reduction on top of taunts on top of peels on top of the ludicrous amount of healing that healers can put out is ridiculous, not to mention everyone's newfound immunity to movement effects, which makes separating tanks and healers even more impossible.

would make tanks useless in pvp like in 99% of all other mmos

Guard needs to be removed, period. Tanks should actively protect healers by taunting and peeling. This 'fire and forget' damage reduction on top of taunts on top of peels on top of the ludicrous amount of healing that healers can put out is ridiculous, not to mention everyone's newfound immunity to movement effects, which makes separating tanks and healers even more impossible.

Roll a full tank (in tank gear) and try NOT to use guard. Then look at your score table results and ask teammates about your overall "weight" in the team...

Honestly, until I see players doing enough damage in warzones to burn through a guarded healer I can't say there is a problem. If you are finishing matches with 400-500 DPS, then that is why your team is having problems. If you're the type of person who claims damage doesn't matter because you are playing objectives, try not playing objectives for a few matches and see where you damage is at. If you aren't doing 800-1000 DPS (a fairly low requirement with people pulling 2-3k in some matches), then you need to evaluate what you can do better.

I have literally had games where I was the only player on my team in the top 8 in total damage and there were not 7 tanks and healers on my team. If they have a healer that does 1.2 milion and we have 3 DPS that do 400k damage each, then their one healer countered almost half our team's damage. That's why you can't kill their healer even with 3 DPS on him/her.

As for the suggestion of a CD on guard swap, that kind of negates the only skill portion of guard. Anticipating who is going to be getting attacked and making the move quickly is what keeps your team alive, especially in ranked 4s.

A tank and a healer are a 1+1=4 situation. Three DPS can kill them, but it takes a long time to do it. You really need four to "burn" the pair.

If propose a simple fix: guard mitigates only 33% of PLAYER damage. It doesn't change for PVE.

A tank can still pull off high mitigation, but they'll have to use taunts, riot gas, and intercede to do it. (Ie skill). That should also bring tanks and healers back down to 1+1=2 where it belongs, where two DPS can take them.

I'm sure the turtle comp premade heroes will scream about this, but I really don't care. It shouldn't take more players than two to fight another two. It's simple math.

would make tanks useless in pvp like in 99% of all other mmos

Then you adjust taunts or reduce guard. As pointed out above, tank and healer are a 1+1 = 4 players, and it is a bit ridiculous at this point. Due to the massive amount of movement immunities in pvp since 3.0, separating a tank from a healer is virtually impossible, and when a healer is guarded it takes at least 3 dps coordinating stuns to bring him down. That's an unrealistic scenario.

And really, come on. Tanks in this game do way more damage in pvp than most other MMOs.

Then you adjust taunts or reduce guard. As pointed out above, tank and healer are a 1+1 = 4 players, and it is a bit ridiculous at this point. Due to the massive amount of movement immunities in pvp since 3.0, separating a tank from a healer is virtually impossible, and when a healer is guarded it takes at least 3 dps coordinating stuns to bring him down. That's an unrealistic scenario.

 

 

And really, come on. Tanks in this game do way more damage in pvp than most other MMOs.

It isn't ridiculous because that is the point of a tank, you are crying because a tank is itself. You might as well cry because water is wet. It is also not insurmountable but it requires thinking in terms of meta. If you want to just faceroll your way to victory and move onto the next warzone perhaps you should L2P.

It isn't ridiculous because that is the point of a tank, you are crying because a tank is itself. You might as well cry because water is wet. It is also not insurmountable but it requires thinking in terms of meta. If you want to just faceroll your way to victory and move onto the next warzone perhaps you should L2P.

No, my problem is that it requires at least half of a team in an 8v8 to bring down one person. The ones 'facerolling' here are the ones that want to keep their invincibility.

Okay folks, thanks for the many constructive replies.

Back to the topic: Keep in mind that there are many ways to adjust things. For example, BW wouldn't need to nerf healers at all, or tanks' in terms of self-survivability. But they could make guard come in with a debuff. A debuff that takes 10-20% power away from a target while guarded. Which makes sense, since a target that is being focussed and needs to be guarded in order to survive should really be eating a humble pie. He shouldn't be able to heal a complete raid, or to kill 4 people while he's in such a distress that he needs private protection by a tank. This would have a further advantage, that tanks wouldn't run around mindlessly guarding people, but only guard when there is serious need.