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Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.17.2015 , 02:17 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by RickDagles View Post
Eh, I disagree with you there. The more important thing is that you're landing lots of shots. Missing a pile of shots isn't a big deal. My accuracy is terrible but I take a lot of high deflection shots when I have a full energy bar and chasing someone. Sometimes they land and it's bonus damage. Most of the time they miss, but who cares?
Those high deflection shots are what make the difference between what I call a good pilot and an average pilot. It's really easy to get high numbers/kill pressured targets when you have no pressure yourself., when good pilots meet it's usually the deflection shots that decide the conflict.
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Xi'ao'prime - Ebon Hawk / Bastion, Tomoya - Jung Ma
Otoshimono - Shadowlands/Progenitor formerly known as: Tomeateeje/Yuuko-San/Rumina/Friendlygurl/Tensai-Hikoushi/Taisetsuna/Yorimoyoi

Maulkat's Avatar


Maulkat
05.17.2015 , 10:07 AM | #22
I fly on Harbinger and have gotten to know most of the ace pilots there. If I see a new name that just dominates in a match, I go out of my way to introduce myself to them. On the other side of the coin, I also go out of my way to assist the "noobs" (that appear to want to learn) to learn how to fly. If I am unable to help them, I will point them in the direction of the gsf channel or a specific person to talk to in game.
One of you mentioned there's not usually more than 5-6 ace pilots on at any one time. On Harbinger, that is false. I could log on at almost any time of day or night and find at least four (to make a group) on either faction.
Wed evenings, my guild (Gone Sithing), puts on what we call Imp side gsf night. We do the same Thur evening on the Pub side. The popularity of gsf there is outstanding, in my opinion. To those I know that only fly one faction, I tell them, "we are flying tonight. Rally the troops and fly against us."
On those evenings where we have our respective "fly nights", I can regularly gather more than eight fliers to queue in together and that's only in one faction. Sometimes there are wargames/livefires, those happen, but quite often we are facing off on the troops that friends have rallied on the other side to fly against us.
Now I don't consider myself an ace, there are many people out there so much better than I am. However, I like to consider myself good. I know the names of the people to watch out for and when I see a pack of noobs on my team, I tell them, "watch out for X or keep X busy". When I fly against a pack of noobs, I also try to refrain from kicking their teeth in so badly they don't want to fly again. Let them hold a sat, don't make the killing blow in a blowout match or I will also make a "stupid mistake" and let them kill me or run my face into a rock to avoid getting killed. Getting my team to agree though is like herding cats sometimes.
All of this having been said, I don't think premades are harming gsf. They help to keep the queues alive and going.

Sixofone/Lucklessa

tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.17.2015 , 02:00 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Maulkat View Post
One of you mentioned there's not usually more than 5-6 ace pilots on at any one time. On Harbinger, that is false. I could log on at almost any time of day or night and find at least four (to make a group) on either faction.
That really really depends on your definition of an ace pilot. As far as I'm concerned the only ace I've met on Harbinger was Willie. Mind you that was a long while ago and things could have changed dramatically, but the rest of the people I've met got crushed under pressure whereas Willie didn't.

I think a few weeks ago I put it as "You're good if you can go against an 8 man pre-made virtually solo and still do well for yourself. (Not necessarily winning the game, not having a high kdr, just having a game presence.) Which you'd be surprised how few people actually do because they are too concerned about how many times they die to actually have a game presence, or they don't cap any nodes because they're scared of mines, again not having a game presence, and they forget who the important targets are because they see some name that's a big deal to them and think that if they kill that guy the whole enemy team will crumble (spoilers it doesn't).



This difference in perspective primarily has to do with the number of pilots who don't know even the most basic things. A lot of the pilots who you might say are good are pilots who have the knowledge to make themselves better than the people who don't know things. (Which is a lot of the population.) but they don't have the experience or skills a lot of the time that in any other game would make the difference between good and average or great and average. It's just the sheer quantity of absolutely positively horrible pilots that will trick you into thinking "Yup, that guys good. His numbers are high." when really he just knows enough to farm, he doesn't have the tools in his mental arsenal to go up against an actually good pilot.

If you want really really want a numbers example I figure if you're a scout/gunship and you can get over 200 DPS in a fringe match you're probably good because that means that the combination of your skill, your knowledge helped you to really take advantage of the fringe case. But if you have a similar fringe case and you're not THAT skilled but your knowledgeable, you could probably easily get 150 DPS+ in said fringe case.

In a strike fighter it's not about your dps but about how fast you can clear a node because ion/heavy is the fastest way to clear bombers and turrets in the game as far as I'm concerned, your time in between nodes is really slow and your time to bear is slow so you really can't use the same numbers that scouts/gunships do.


As far as bombers go, across the 8 servers I've been to the only good one I have EVER seen is Drakkolich.

People have previously said that there are tiers of aces and I think that that is partially true, the issue with it is that there's no real way at this moment to quantify, or give yourself points and say "this is what tier I'm in", especially considering the difference in styles of flights between players.
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Xi'ao'prime - Ebon Hawk / Bastion, Tomoya - Jung Ma
Otoshimono - Shadowlands/Progenitor formerly known as: Tomeateeje/Yuuko-San/Rumina/Friendlygurl/Tensai-Hikoushi/Taisetsuna/Yorimoyoi

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
05.17.2015 , 02:44 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by tommmsunb View Post
That really really depends on your definition of an ace pilot. As far as I'm concerned the only ace I've met on Harbinger was Willie. Mind you that was a long while ago and things could have changed dramatically, but the rest of the people I've met got crushed under pressure.

I think a few weeks ago I put it as "You're good if you can go against an 8 man pre-made virtually solo and still do well for yourself. (Not necessarily winning the game, not having a high kdr, just having a game presence.) Which you'd be surprised how few people actually do because they are too concerned about how many times they die to actually have a game presence, or they don't cap any nodes because they're scared of mines, again not having a game presence, and they forget who the important targets are because they see some name that's a big deal to them and think that if they kill that guy the whole enemy team will crumble (spoilers it doesn't).
Willie's pretty good. Part of what makes him so dangerous is people don't notice Myxon out at 15km when they get into a dogfight with him: if anyone doesn't instantly die when he shows up (they often do, because they aren't aware of him until it's too late), they get ion railed, and Harfang just swaps around whatever ship and is dangerous enough with it. I have seen a match where Willie solo queued and couldn't do anything, though: we had a double premade and nobody on his team took enough enough pressure off him: he was constantly on the run, and very very rarely could take a shot. The only thing his mastered battlescout could do for most of the match was run and pop DCDs because of the sheer number of other battlescouts which didn't give him a shot.

Most of the premades I've seen on Harbinger can beat any one or two aces through massive gunship spam, and that's usually what happens if a fight starts to go bad. That's part of the reason so many of us on Harbinger can't dogfight: without the overlapping fields of fire of 1600-damage-without-warning slug rail, too many of us are totally helpless, and we don't usually coordinate gunship rushes so everyone always attacks the GS wall one or two at a time-which is a fail strategy no matter what ship you're in unless the gunships have no situational awareness and don't evade at all.

---

Back on topic, the whole point of a multiplayer game is to play with friends, and people will. Premade doesn't automatically mean the other team will win, it just means they're grouped up. The problem happens when the matchmaker can't seem to help throwing people with thousands of games played against people who don't even know the range limit on rapids, how to lock a missile, or that they even have a missile break (or cooldowns!) against people with thousands of games played-over and over and over again.

tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.17.2015 , 04:15 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
so everyone always attacks the GS wall one or two at a time-which is a fail strategy no matter what ship you're in unless the gunships have no situational awareness and don't evade at all.

---
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I hate to say it but this perspective is the difference between a good pilot and a great pilot which is really an average pilot vs a good pilot. Even the best gunship pilot in the game can be caught off guard. It's all about being able to see the opportunity. With full energy and damage cooldowns in quads/pods I can pretty easily take a gunship out before he notices I'm there. The trick to it is making sure he doesn't know I'm there using sleight of hand tricks.

Also, i have to tell you that this isn't off-topic. The OP is just ignorant to the real problem at hand.
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Xi'ao'prime - Ebon Hawk / Bastion, Tomoya - Jung Ma
Otoshimono - Shadowlands/Progenitor formerly known as: Tomeateeje/Yuuko-San/Rumina/Friendlygurl/Tensai-Hikoushi/Taisetsuna/Yorimoyoi

Lendul's Avatar


Lendul
05.17.2015 , 05:27 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by tommmsunb View Post
That really really depends on your definition of an ace pilot. As far as I'm concerned the only ace I've met on Harbinger was Willie. Mind you that was a long while ago and things could have changed dramatically, but the rest of the people I've met got crushed under pressure whereas Willie didn't.

I think a few weeks ago I put it as "You're good if you can go against an 8 man pre-made virtually solo and still do well for yourself. (Not necessarily winning the game, not having a high kdr, just having a game presence.) Which you'd be surprised how few people actually do because they are too concerned about how many times they die to actually have a game presence, or they don't cap any nodes because they're scared of mines, again not having a game presence, and they forget who the important targets are because they see some name that's a big deal to them and think that if they kill that guy the whole enemy team will crumble (spoilers it doesn't).



This difference in perspective primarily has to do with the number of pilots who don't know even the most basic things. A lot of the pilots who you might say are good are pilots who have the knowledge to make themselves better than the people who don't know things. (Which is a lot of the population.) but they don't have the experience or skills a lot of the time that in any other game would make the difference between good and average or great and average. It's just the sheer quantity of absolutely positively horrible pilots that will trick you into thinking "Yup, that guys good. His numbers are high." when really he just knows enough to farm, he doesn't have the tools in his mental arsenal to go up against an actually good pilot.

If you want really really want a numbers example I figure if you're a scout/gunship and you can get over 200 DPS in a fringe match you're probably good because that means that the combination of your skill, your knowledge helped you to really take advantage of the fringe case. But if you have a similar fringe case and you're not THAT skilled but your knowledgeable, you could probably easily get 150 DPS+ in said fringe case.

In a strike fighter it's not about your dps but about how fast you can clear a node because ion/heavy is the fastest way to clear bombers and turrets in the game as far as I'm concerned, your time in between nodes is really slow and your time to bear is slow so you really can't use the same numbers that scouts/gunships do.


As far as bombers go, across the 8 servers I've been to the only good one I have EVER seen is Drakkolich.

People have previously said that there are tiers of aces and I think that that is partially true, the issue with it is that there's no real way at this moment to quantify, or give yourself points and say "this is what tier I'm in", especially considering the difference in styles of flights between players.
Tomm you changed from "good" pilot to "ace" mid debate. Moving the bar is poor form.

RickDagles's Avatar


RickDagles
05.17.2015 , 09:19 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by tommmsunb View Post
Those high deflection shots are what make the difference between what I call a good pilot and an average pilot. It's really easy to get high numbers/kill pressured targets when you have no pressure yourself., when good pilots meet it's usually the deflection shots that decide the conflict.
When I said high deflection shots I literally meant shots taken far from center. And it's not skill that decides if those hit, it's RNG. I agree that playing well when pressured is the prime indicator of player skill. What I'm talking about is something entirely different. Accuracy numbers can be a bit misleading depending on player ship and style. Another great example of this - I shoot around 75% accuracy with the Quarrel but only about 65% with the Condor. This is because I am doing a lot less running and a lot more firing of BLC with the Condor. There are times when the target is 4400m away and at high deflection and it makes sense to take the shot. Will the shot hit? Probably not, but I'm still going to take that shot. What if the other team has a bunch of scouts running TT max evasion, DF, and running interference? Your accuracy will be low, but you should still be taking the same amount of shots. In fact, I would likely only be taking quarter charge shots against running interference, so my shot total may even increase.


I also don't agree with what you're saying about DPS numbers being the most important sign of a good player/ace. There are plenty of aces that don't worry about numbers, and instead focus on winning. I consider you the most skilled scout I have played against and your numbers prove that. However, if you look at a player like Drakolich - his scout numbers usually aren't above 100 DPS because he's providing peels for his gunships, he's holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, and he's focusing the other team's best players while mostly ignoring the unthreatening ones.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
05.17.2015 , 09:47 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
Willie's pretty good. Part of what makes him so dangerous is people don't notice Myxon out at 15km
I'm not a fan of playing "who is this good" publicly, because it's pretty dramatic. But I don't normally (ever?) see Willie and his team on the forums, so I'll speak up here.

Willie and his team are more than pretty good, and Willie alone is more than pretty good. He has very excellent aim and plays a heavy three-space build (power dive, rocket pods, burst) extremely well. He plays team support, swapping to those who pressure his gunships, and he doesn't chase when it isn't correct to do so, or play like a rager. What I think is most interesting is just how hard it is to get a misplay out of him.
Elaborating on the "three space" build- when Wille approaches a node, he does so based on the existing mines, instead of defaulting to a "template approach" and just trying to kill mines on the way in. His positioning is quite exact- the are certainly other battle scouts that skilled, but you don't need to be that good at it to be universally considered an ace.

Anyway, enough of that.

Tom's flippant comment about there not normally being six good pilots on a server at once is maybe a bit of a bait and switch, but it's still a solid point- OP has probably not fought a bunch of good pilots at once, and the overall point that he likely doesn't even know what he is complaining about, has a lot of merit.

Quote:
The OP is just ignorant to the real problem at hand.
Correct. Like many guys who play a few times and then determine that the problem is the game, he doesn't even know what the right thing to complain about is.

The actual thing to complain about is that you need to play enough to master a ship several times over to have the level of skill required to be close to where your personal best is, and even that doesn't give you the experience you need to play with a team. Complaining about gear and matchmaking isn't even in the right ballpark.

The complaints about a lack of a pve way to learn anything are completely sound, of course- we've echoed these a lot around here- but the post wasn't titled that.


Like a lot of posts that really get my goat, it's all about pretending that an almost entirely freshfaced opinion is literal fact. Apparently, the people playing the game since launch are hurting it by playing the game since launch. Give me a break!

Quote:
When I said high deflection shots I literally meant shots taken far from center. And it's not skill that decides if those hit, it's RNG.
I am mostly with Siraka on this one- accuracy can matter less depending on the role and the build. If you have a chance to take a shot at the edge of the circle, it can, depending, be totally correct to do so, even with a 10% chance of your shot landing. Because not taking it is 0%. Accuracy is still a good guide, but I wouldn't go with Tom's strict numbers on that.

The flipside here is: have you seen Tom play? Missed shots are bad for him because he's almost always on a target. The opportunity cost for a high deflection shot is real with that playstyle, and furthermore, he's normally seeking a target he can line up enough to kill or force off of useful positioning, at which point he can acquire a new target or chase. For a scout running Tom's role, his accuracy statements are correct- but I just don't think that's every scout.

But vaguely more on topic question- anyone here think OP would fall into this argument at all? You think he'd be at like 35% accuracy and talking about high deflection shots, or do you think he'd be vastly lower and shooting at out of range targets regularly, as newer players do with observable regularity?
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.18.2015 , 03:17 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Lendul View Post
Tomm you changed from "good" pilot to "ace" mid debate. Moving the bar is poor form.
The previous post was talking about aces. I switched the bar because of his change in terminology.
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Xi'ao'prime - Ebon Hawk / Bastion, Tomoya - Jung Ma
Otoshimono - Shadowlands/Progenitor formerly known as: Tomeateeje/Yuuko-San/Rumina/Friendlygurl/Tensai-Hikoushi/Taisetsuna/Yorimoyoi

tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.18.2015 , 04:53 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by RickDagles View Post
However, if you look at a player like Drakolich - his scout numbers usually aren't above 100 DPS because he's providing peels for his gunships, he's holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, and he's focusing the other team's best players while mostly ignoring the unthreatening ones.
That's more to do with the fact that Verain can be a princess sometimes when asking for peels

Also don't assume that high numbers strictly come from focussing on unthreatening teammates. One of my posted records actually has me killing Scrab everytime he spawns in it. Killing those unthreatening ones does't very often take much thought so you can really call it focussing.

As for holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, he and I have agreed to disagree on the validity of that play. But I really wouldn't say drakkolich should be known for his scout play, he's at his best when he's in a bomber by far.


As for taking shots that are literally at the fringe of deflection, it's not your aim thats at fault there its your ship positioning. You very rarely are in a position that that RNG can even come into effect if you're flying correctly in a quads/pods or burst/pods scout, even in a burst cluster scout to a certain extent.. If you find yourself doing that often, that is a point that you can improve in your flying. The very fact that you're saying "accuracy doesn't really matter because I'm taking a lot of deflection shots." to me sounds like you're just not really doing it right.

What I was previously talking about is getting the enemy pilot into a position where they have to take said deflection shots.


Verain says I'm being strict on this, and he's told me this before over voice, and I largely agree that I am being strict, but I think there's something to be said about the term good or great or ace or whatever you want to call it. If you have a lot of parts of your play that you can improve, then you are not an image that people can use to look up to as what they want to become and if people are then they are doing a disservice to themselves because they are copying mistakes. It's really hard sometimes to determine what somebody who's better than you is doing that is bad or good because you don't know all the reasons behind it so if you're trying to become better you might just largely copy them, and of course a lot of the time people that far behind you are unable to even figure out what it is that you're doing that is so different from them.


As for my point being a bit of a bait and switch, yeah maybe a little bit. I still think I can probably count pilots that I think to be good on 2 or 3 hands at the most. Odds of finding those pilots on one server in such concentration is pretty rare.

I realize I'm being elitist, call it what you want. It's just that when the vast majority of the population, even pilots who think that they're good and are doing well for themselves are making such simple mistakes in their play it's hard not to be a little elitist about it.
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Xi'ao'prime - Ebon Hawk / Bastion, Tomoya - Jung Ma
Otoshimono - Shadowlands/Progenitor formerly known as: Tomeateeje/Yuuko-San/Rumina/Friendlygurl/Tensai-Hikoushi/Taisetsuna/Yorimoyoi