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Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

Akabelleth's Avatar


Akabelleth
05.13.2015 , 10:01 PM | #1
I am beyond sick and tired of waiting for a GSF que to trigger only to find myself against a republic group with fully equipped ships. Its as though the developers want to punish you for daring to play Galactic Star Fighter matches. I enjoy pvp but not when its clear that no matter how hard I play or try to work with my team, I lose the match in a brutal fashion.

This is the same problem in Unranked Warzones for PvP, I have seen too many pre-made raid groups in full ranked gear, dominating matches especially when the other team is not equally geared. This is a flaw that must be corrected if you wish this game to stand the test of time. I don't mind paying my dues but I do want an equal shot at winning, especially if you are going to allow the playing field to be so skewed to one side's favor.

Either make it easier to grind out requisition points, i.e. let us gear up our ships faster or gate the GSF matches to ensure parity between the teams. It really isn't that hard and would make an awesome part of the game actually enjoyable.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
05.13.2015 , 10:29 PM | #2
I enjoy it.

Sounds like you are doing something wrong.


Consider cjoining gsf channel and finding a team. You know, for the team game.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Akabelleth's Avatar


Akabelleth
05.13.2015 , 11:09 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
I enjoy it.

Sounds like you are doing something wrong.


Consider cjoining gsf channel and finding a team. You know, for the team game.
I didn't say I didn't enjoy the idea or even when the matches are evenly competetive but I do NOT enjoy it when I am with a group that has mostly new ships. So you can say join a channel or you have fun or that I am somehow "doing it wrong". Your statement does nothing to discuss the issue only that you don't have a problem with it. That is nice for you but not so much for those who can't grind out a ship fast enough.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
05.13.2015 , 11:23 PM | #4
Btw, I'll actually address some of your points.

Quote: Originally Posted by Akabelleth View Post
only to find myself against a republic group with fully equipped ships
Here's Drako on some stock ships, and some others:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=755330

If you are up against a bunch of premades, no, you won't win that game. But that's a minority of matches. How do I know this? I've played a bunch of matches.

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Its as though the developers want to punish you for daring to play Galactic Star Fighter matches.
While I did name my ion railgun "The Developer", I think you are confused about what is punishing you in GSF matches. Hint: It's your pvp opponents.

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I enjoy pvp but not when its clear that no matter how hard I play or try to work with my team, I lose the match in a brutal fashion.
So, what you are saying is, you didn't play hard enough, or they played harder. It's not pve: your effort and coordination doesn't need to be "at least this high" to win. It needs to be MORE than your opponent. And since they want to win, they will also do those things.

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This is the same problem in Unranked Warzones for PvP
Hint: if the game isn't ranked, it won't really be able to make fair matches with great reliability. In the ground pvp, the clue is in the name.

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This is a flaw that must be corrected if you wish this game to stand the test of time.
The profusion of games and game modes that can, at times, be uneven, proves otherwise. WoW battlegrounds, many other games, etc.

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I don't mind paying my dues
Many players here have reqqed from 0 to full on multiple servers, so I'm guessing you exactly do mind that. Especially when you complain about reqqed ships existing. Like, anywhere.

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but I do want an equal shot at winning
You'll just have to play enough to be better than your opponents then.

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Either make it easier to grind out requisition points
They did this already. It's vastly easier to req than before. Plus, again, if you aren't pulling numbers like in the above thread in your STOCK ship (and you know your ship isn't stock), then the req isn't what's holding you back.

How can I say this? Because, like many here, I've played stock and low req ships a ton of times, and the same with mastered ships. That. Is. Not. YOUR. Issue.

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It really isn't that hard and would make an awesome part of the game actually enjoyable.
It doesn't matter what they do (and they won't do anything). Someone will still come in with the same complaint.


Look, lemme lay this out for you:

1)- It's a 3-space game inside an MMO. That limits the players a lot.
2)- We don't have active devs right now.
3)- They already did what you said.
4)- Req in this game means vastly less than gear does anywhere else.
5)- You are new to a pvp game, losing in pvp. That's to be expected.
6)- The players who will tell you it's not primarily about req have played reqqed ships and played naked ships and everything in between, multiple times. You should probably heed that advice!
7)- I'm not a fan of the low req ships, so I go and get req. I recommend you do the same.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
05.13.2015 , 11:41 PM | #5
Also: premade groups are what keeps GSF going, because the game is all about team work, and that's the part that keeps everyone coming back. Fully equipped ships are a lot more balanced that the earlier ones, and again, aren't your issue.

The problem with GSF is that we don't have any new content, and that it has a poor tutorial and no way to play without having to jump straight into the meat grinder. Those are apparently design issues, and we don't have a good way around those. I get that the new player experience is frustrating- as Nem says, the game could use more approachability- but as community, there's tutorials and guides to help.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Daedahl's Avatar


Daedahl
05.14.2015 , 05:54 AM | #6
Not that my opinion should mean much to the GSF community, since I have probably less than 200 games played across all my characters, but I'm going to weigh in anyway. First, I don't think pre-mades or fully equipped ships are harming GSF. There is nothing wrong with pre-mades on their own. It's an MMO, you need a way to be able to play with your friends, that's all pre-mades really are. Mastered ships are not the problem either. Like others have said in many threads, the mastered ship is not the major difference, it's the experience gained by mastering the ship. You could put a brand new pilot in a mastered ship against an ace in a stock ship and the ace will win every time due to their experience.

That said, I know where the OP is coming from, it is frustrating to finally get a queue pop and then see you have no shot because the opposing team is full of the best pilots on the server and your team has a bunch of two and three shippers. If this happens once in awhile it's annoying, but I can deal with this if it's not the norm. Unfortunately some nights that match repeats itself in the second match. When that happens I'm usually done for the night.

But this is not the other team's fault, they're just trying to play the game. It's not even really the developers fault, they can't make the right number of evenly skilled pilots queue at the same time, there's just not enough of those at certain times. Cross-server queues might help, but that's likely something that would require a major redesign that isn't going to happen. Without a major influx of players at all skill levels at all times of the day you aren't likely to see this problem eliminated.

Do you enjoy those even matches (or even the ones slightly unbalanced against you)? I know I do. The occasional blowout by a vastly superior opponent is a price I'm willing to pay for the fun I get in the good matches (and the hope that someday I won't just be cannon fodder in the other matches).

Akabelleth's Avatar


Akabelleth
05.14.2015 , 06:13 AM | #7
I would like to thank you all for sharing but my opinion hasn't changed. I play daily GSF matches and when there is parity in the groups its a fun and worthwhile challenge. I don't hate a premade per se but what I do dislike intensely isn't that it about skill(s or tactics but about grabbing as many "aces" as you can pack on your team with maxed out ships.

I love it when its "well your obviously not good enough" or "its part of paying your dues in pvp". I am not so foolish as do demand complete parity but I play mostly on the imperial side of the coin. I seem to keep getting groups with new to GSF and thus unprepared players. I play hard with and for my team no matter who the opponent is or how may "aces" they have. But I have spoken to several player(s) who want to enjoy it but when they try to find a comparable level of challenge to their limited time to play thus grind out ship(s) and components.

It seems they like me draw a very skilled and extremely well equipped republic group as opponents. While loosing, sometimes badly so, is part of the learning curve. The domination of a group who shows up in match after match is disheartening. And the Developers should pay attention to the enjoyment of the game regardless of skill level of the player(s) involved. GSF and PvP for that matter shouldn't seem like a constant string of beatings just for the hope that you will be able to return the same to someone else down the road.

I enjoy those matches where its close in terms of relative skill(s), equipment, and team chemistry. Those matches get my blood racing and I enjoy it immensely win or loose. But on the evenings when I get the same opponets 5 or 6 matches in a row, with the ace crew and maxed out ships it discourages me to want to play GSF at all. I don't want to be denied or have others feel discouraged in trying to have fun. I am just hoping that a few will read this and take heart that their frustration is noted and heard.

Snean's Avatar


Snean
05.14.2015 , 08:03 AM | #8
new player 10 lvl will play with 100% achiv in 1 battle.
too few ppl play now so it be. may be bw need do bolster for it.

and i not see premade group long ago - to many ppl stop playing.
please sorry google translator if he translated unclear.
canseled subs after 3.1.2
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

caederon's Avatar


caederon
05.14.2015 , 09:47 AM | #9
Bolster doesn't work for GSF, because the problem in GSF stems far less from having under-equipped ships than it does from people:
1. Being unable to hit anything with their weapons
2. Not knowing what to do to secure an objective
3. Not recognizing threats on the board
4. Not anticipating the enemy's movement.

Verain is right in that GSF is a team game, but teamwork doesn't always have to be coordinated over voice or through premades. It certainly helps with tactical awareness to do it that way, but if you play enough, you get a feel for how the matches develop, where threats come from, and what to do to remove them.

It is frustrating to solo-queue into matches against an experienced premade even from my perspective as someone who is experienced and has all the ships I need to compete. Nobody learns anything from getting 3-cap stomped, other than 'I am not good enough' or 'my team is not good enough'. It's even worse when it is apparent the other side's premade is in for the long haul, and your side has nobody on who is capable of playing competitively.

I solo queue a lot because I don't often have time these days to play many matches, or time to search out a team if good players are even available. I like to drop in for a couple matches when I can, but it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes the situation is favorable, sometimes I'm stuck with one quality teammate and a handful of people who fly (and shoot) like leaves blowing in the wind. Through good luck or bad, my time is either rewarded with fun or completely wasted in frustration.

The issue really boils down to one thing: not a large enough pool of people playing to consistently allow for competitive matchups. This is largely unsolvable in any meaningful way without official support from Bioware. We make our efforts here on the forum, Drakolich puts out many videos, etc but it ultimately is small potatoes compared to what we would need to really embiggen the player pool in order for consistent, even matches.

The secondary issue is player experience. No matter how well you play, if your team is full of people who have accuracy ratings in the single digits and don't know why those big A B and C are on their map, you are going to lose to any competent team.

As frustrated as I get being dropped into bad matches that are clearly hopeless from before the match starts, it is kind of dumb to wish for skilled players to stop being good. Most of the time, I try to call off 3-cap stomps when I'm on the strong side of them, but often it's like telling a pack of hungry dogs that the pile of steaks on the ground isn't for them, and they should just respectfully decline to eat them.

My recommended solutions for those who care enough to persist through bad matchmaking:
1. Take your performance seriously and avail yourself of the resources here (video learning, tutoring, critique of your flying) and spread the word that these resources exist.

2. Find some people you like flying with, even if it's not a voice group, you can help yourself by teaming up with quality pilots. Get to know the people who frequently top the leaderboard.

3. Remind Bioware that GSF is the reason (or part of the reason) you play their game, and it needs attention. Don't do it here on this forum, they barely ever come here. Find some other means. Even if it seems like shouting at the wind, it can't hurt to let them know.

- Despon

Verain's Avatar


Verain
05.14.2015 , 10:11 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Akabelleth View Post
I would like to thank you all for sharing but my opinion hasn't changed.

We are not "sharing". We are "telling".

Your thread title is phrased like a fact. It is not a fact: it is incorrect.

Don't try to pretend that we are all trying to "change your opinion". You came here to debate by stating things as facts that are not facts. And definitely don't try to change frame on us with weasel words.


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I love it when its "well your obviously not good enough" or "its part of paying your dues in pvp".
I love it when 2+2 is "4", but that's because it's also true.

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It seems they like me draw a very skilled and extremely well equipped republic group as opponents.
So, each server is different, and each playtime is different. If you are flying against the same premade multiple times, you are probably queueing when they queue. As you might imagine, getting a premade together requires some effort, so normally there's a time of day, or time of week, or something, where these guys will meet up. What you should be doing is finding a group of empire to queue against them and beat them- but the very LEAST you could do, if that's not in the cards, is just queue when they aren't stomping your face in. Not that I suggest that: but it would certainly be more productive for you, I guess.


Ultimately, your complaints are very narrow. YOU are discouraged because on one server, when playing one faction, at a specific time, without teammates, YOU have a rough game. But you phrase this like it's a game wide problem. You project your logistical issues onto the entire playerbase. That's simply bad logic. I told you right away, in my first post, what your solution is- play with a damned team. It is a team game, you are part of a squad. If your opponents are coordinated and you are not, you will lose.

You weaken the argument further by implying that you even know what good coordination and play looks like. You might! You might actually have a pretty good idea, brought over from a presumed reasonably expansive history of pvp in other places, with good skill. But that's not really been my experience when people complain.
Here's what I see out of an uncoordinated team:
Ships that don't acquire scouts chasing down their allied gunships. Ships that don't support nodes. Allowing enemy gunships to remain roosted indefinitely. Allowing enemy deployables to stick around. Ignoring enemy hyperspace beacons. Staying in a turn-fight instead of swapping to peel. Valuing killcount++ over your teammates. Ship choice made entirely unrelated to other ships on the map.
So when you claim to work with your team, how can you be sure that these things aren't plaguing you? If you don't do them, how can you know that your team isn't?


If you want to win more, play with a team. If that's too hard, don't queue against whatever group of guys you are actually complaining about. I love that this started as "facts about the design flaws of GSF" and ended up as "...so there's this pub guild that bothers me".

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embiggen the player pool
Yessssssss

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That said, I know where the OP is coming from, it is frustrating to finally get a queue pop and then see you have no shot because the opposing team is full of the best pilots on the server and your team has a bunch of two and three shippers.
It's easy to be frustrated in these situations- I am normally frustrated in them as well. I often can make the best of it by trying to make them work for it, but I'm certainly not saying these games are fun for all involved or whatever. I am saying that they are not really representative of all games- and that you can absolutely choose your fate to a reasonable degree by queuing with other pilots that will coordinate.

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Cross-server queues might help
Like you say, it isn't happening- but it's absolutely insane that it is not. GSF needs cross server more than the ground game does, but that won't drive the development. It'll probably get dragged along if and when the ground game gets cross server PvP, but it should have shipped with this, period. Like, SWTOR should have never left beta without cross server pvp. Other games have spawned and died, with cross server in this time. WoW has expanded there cross server from "pvp instances" to "pve instances" to "each zone dynamically in the world". The last two have their opponents, but the first is trivially needed.

So you can sort of blame the designers here- someone decided that this vital feature could be left on the floor, to very bad consequences. But that was certainly not a GSF issue, it's SWTOR-wide.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."