I tried using the search function but I can't seem to find that old post that compared proton torpedo and thermite torpedo damage in depth. Anyone know what the post was called or could send a link? Or even just explain the damage here if you can remember the finer details. Thanks.

I tried using the search function but I can't seem to find that old post that compared proton torpedo and thermite torpedo damage in depth. Anyone know what the post was called or could send a link? Or even just explain the damage here if you can remember the finer details. Thanks.

 

Protorp crit > Thermite > Protorp

 

But Thermite suck if you don't pressure your opponent, it really shines through its debuff.

Whoa, I can't find it either. Tune and I were in that thread, we worked out how much damage, etc.

 

To correct the > chain:

 

Thermite crit on bare to mostly bare hull* > Thermite non-crit on bare hull to mostly bare hull > Proton crit > Thermite crit on mostly shielded target* > Thermite non-crit on mostly shielded target > proton

 

*requires targeting telemetry active

 

 

Here's the numbers straight though, assuming proton ranged talent and thermite extra debuff length talent (other talent choice is important, but not numbers relevant, speed versus arc). The protons fall behind in raw damage, but remember that their damage is always to hull (hull damage in lime)

 

Common:

3.4 second lockon

100% armor ignore

 

Proton:

11500m range

Damage fully ignores shield and is dealt directly to hull total.

872 base hull damage, with a 10% chance of dealing 1308 hull damage. Average damage 916.

 

Thermite:

10000m range

Damage ignores 20% of shield. Any damage that passes the shield is multiplied by 1.5

Initial damage to bare hull: 906 hull damage

Initial damage to fully shielded target: 483 shield damage, 181 hull damage, 664 total.

Initial damage to theoretical target where shield piercing did not function: 604.

Dot ticks every 3 seconds for 18 seconds, so 6 total ticks.

Each tick to bare hull is: 181 hull damage.

Each tick to a fully shielded target: 72 shield damage, 72 hull damage, 144 total damage.

 

Total damage over all 18 seconds (initial plus 6 ticks) versus bare hull: 1993.

Total damage over all 18 seconds (initial plus 6 ticks) versus shielded target: 915 shield damage plus 613 hull damage = 1528 total damage.

Total damage over all 18 seconds (initial plus 6 ticks) versus theoretical target where shield piercing did not function: 1328 total raw shield damage.

 

Thermite debuff:

The effects of the debuff were in the above math, but there are OTHER effects to consider. The thermite debuff makes the enemy target:

> Not benefit from damage reduction, including charged plating.

> Gain a shield bleedthrough versus all effects of 20%.

These debuffs affect the target, meaning that all your allies benefit from them when they strike. This means that a charged plating boy bomber with 99% damage reduction and 20% shield bleedthrough will, during a thermite debuff, have 0% damage reduction and 40% shield bleedthrough.

 

 

Comparison:

Versus a shielded target, protons will deal an average of 916 damage to hull, while thermites only deal 614 hull damage, with the additional 915 shield damage being sometimes useful and other times not. The eighteen seconds of thermite debuff effect, however, could leave a target in much worse shape should any followup damage be incoming. Versus an unshielded target, thermites are mostly a death sentence, but such targets are obviously rare.

 

 

Undocumented / theorized:

Many of us have the idea that thermites drop locks a little easier than protons, despite in theory having the same arc. No solid tests have been done, and this opinion is controversial.

Many of us notice that the numbers in game are different- very slightly- than the numbers here. For instance, the math says the dot tick will be 144.9, but in game you will often see a 142 pop up. Where did the extra couple damage go? Probably something about how their math is done changes it a bit, but it's interesting to note. But the overall conclusions and totals are very consistent.

 

 

 

My opinion: I think both are very useful and interesting. I slightly prefer the thermites because of how crippling the debuff is, but protons are definitely better versus some targets. While both can be "point blanked", the proton is IMO more devastating in this usage as it can leave a target in a position it had no intention of being in, often resulting in a kill. While not a super effective playstyle, if shooting at long range consistently the extra range on protons gives them a slight edge in that usage.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Verain

Thanks, I think the post also discussed potential of using bypass ability to syngerize with the thermite. I think it was decided that it was an option on Republic side due to the better passives but much inferior to wingman on the imp side. Edited December 28, 2014 by RickDagles

The ability to run bypass without losing the accuracy crewman passive is the factional difference. Certainly it makes it more fun to point blank a thermite, but giving up wingman for bypass on Republic side is probably less damage on average. While I actually do run bypass thermite on some Republic ships, I don't think we came to the overall conclusion that it was a good baseline recommendation. Edited December 28, 2014 by Verain

Has anyone ever done a calculation for how much hull damage that would provide?

 

And what about hull damage with bypass on a bomber running charging plating?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that in this scenario a Thermite could be a 2-hit kill on fully shielded bombers. Is it possible? This would make it pretty effective at killing bombers hidden under a sat when you are solo queued. What I like to do now is use 3 protons (or 2 if I get a crit) but it takes a pretty long time.

Edited December 28, 2014 by RickDagles

Has anyone ever done a calculation for how much hull damage that would provide?

 

It's just 16% more shield piercing. The initial hit is calculated with 20% shield piercing, the dot ticks have 40% (20% plus the 20% they bring for being there), so that would go up to 36% and 56%. That means that

 

Number wise, I'm pretty sure that becomes:

326 initial hull damage.

386 initial shield damage.

101 dot hull damage.

53 dot shield damage

 

So in theory, that would be: 932 hull damage, 704 shield damage, 1636 total.

 

And what about hull damage with bypass on a bomber running charging plating?

 

It'll be more, but not a bunch more, because charged plating already gives that big bleedthrough. Why not you do that math and post it here?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that in this scenario a Thermite could be a 2-hit kill on fully shielded bombers. Is it possible?

 

If a bomber is willing to eat two thermites, it's dead anyway

 

This would make it pretty effective at killing bombers hidden under a sat when you are solo queued. What I like to do now is use 3 protons (or 2 if I get a crit) but it takes a pretty long time.

 

If you are 3 protoning bombers, you should use thermite. Even a dash of damage during the thermite debuff will be devastating, and please remember that if you land a second thermite hit while the first is active the initial hit benefits from the additional 20% shield piercing as well. Also note that three protons, launched on cooldown, is DEFINITELY more damage than three protons launched on cooldown, because the thermite dot will overwrite. But honestly, two thermites plus even a dash of laser will end any bomber, and I do recommend that. In the case you describe, thermite will be better than proton in part because it helps with the shields, and also because it will turn your lasers into 40% shield piercing 100% armor piercing monstrosities. Bypass pretty marginal there.

Anyway.. I honestly prefer Thermite > Protorpwith HLC... No bomber can survive two torpedoes back to back while being HLC'ed.

 

Yeah another troll ship I like running.

But honestly, two thermites plus even a dash of laser will end any bomber, and I do recommend that. In the case you describe, thermite will be better than proton in part because it helps with the shields, and also because it will turn your lasers into 40% shield piercing 100% armor piercing monstrosities. Bypass pretty marginal there.

 

If you have a half decent team then this works great because they can land some HLC or railgun shots. But I solo queue a lot. The difficulty for me is getting close enough to use the lasers without getting killed by mines/drones/HLC/teamates. Clarion, NovaDive, and Spearpoint need to be at least 5750m away to land a shot, and that is typically pretty risky territory.

 

Has anyone tried using a Comet Breaker as a legit bomber buster? Thermite torp followed by slug railgun with bypass could be a pretty quick one-two blow. Thermite followed by HLC is another great option that's not availavle to others. Only problem is - do you have enough time to pull it off before a scout sees ya and ends your dreams.

 

A thermite torp + plasma combo would be pretty funny. Slow death by DOT bomber torture.

Edited December 28, 2014 by RickDagles

Has anyone tried using a Comet Breaker as a legit bomber buster? Thermite torp followed by slug railgun with bypass could be a pretty quick one-two blow. Thermite followed by HLC is another great option that's not availavle to others. Only problem is - do you have enough time to pull it off before a scout sees ya and ends your dreams.

 

A thermite torp + plasma combo would be pretty funny. Slow death by DOT bomber torture.

 

The best way to use the time spent locking with thermite with your T2 is to take the time to swap to T1, so you can use that time to charge your ion/slug combos. Thermite lock against a bomber with a brain is not straightforward, and 20% shield bleedthrough for your allies is worse than 100% shield bleedthrough when you have ion rail eat an entire shield face, in the process clearing out the minefield protecting the bomber.

I mean, that would be pretty devastating. The math checks out.

 

The thing is, thermite and proton are normally more about the scouts and strikes that can use them. While present on bombers and gunships, they are pretty rough to use compared to the more maneuverable ships. If you were suddenly thrust into space at 9km away, sure, thermite and then wind up a slug as he runs, that will melt him. But normally you'll get in range of a bomber at 15km OR at a close distance like 8km that also features them about to run line of sight again. In those cases, your entry should be a railgun, the first because you can't lock a proton, the second because you will be able to charge whilst they are out of LOS and release once they are in, or release early before they LOS you.

Anyway.. I honestly prefer Thermite > Protorpwith HLC... No bomber can survive two torpedoes back to back while being HLC'ed.

 

Yeah another troll ship I like running.

No. Bad Dragön. Down. Stop mentioning the double torps.

 

In all seriousness, I've actually played around with that, largely unupgraded even. It's a bad, bad build, but also fun to use in otherwise boring games.

 

For Thermites versus Protons, for me it comes down to your primaries. If you don't have armour piercing primaries, take the Thermites over the Protons. Otherwise, I prefer the instant damage and very slightly easier locks of the Protons (and the range part of that is not controversial in the slightest).

Edited December 29, 2014 by MiaowZedong

No. Bad Dragön. Down. Stop mentioning the double torps.

 

In all seriousness, I've actually played around with that, largely unupgraded even. It's a bad, bad build, but also fun to use in otherwise boring games.

 

For Thermites versus Protons, for me it comes down to your primaries. If you don't have armour piercing primaries, take the Thermites over the Protons. Otherwise, I prefer the instant damage and very slightly easier locks of the Protons (and the range part of that is not controversial in the slightest).

 

Hey.. You know the feeling when you emptied your whole slew of missiles?? Especially with Ammo Magazine over the normal count?? It's amazing.. Especially when you know for sure at least 75% of them landed.