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Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

AdamLKvist's Avatar


AdamLKvist
12.25.2011 , 10:22 AM | #11
I tried being constructive, I'm going to be as childish...

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO


For balance issues, NO.
Not supposed to be a mage? What are you smoking. Are you going to make (let me rephrase) a CASTER strong in melee? Yeah, NO.


Every class needs a weakness and youre trying to rid our class of it's weakness and make it void of skill, zzzz, REROLL.


This is not the saberwielding class youre looking for. Just spam doubble strike thats approximately 300-500 damage at higher levels which isn't really optimal but if you want to saber, go for it.

Samaul's Avatar


Samaul
12.25.2011 , 07:52 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by AdamLKvist View Post
I tried being constructive, I'm going to be as childish...


For balance issues, NO.
Not supposed to be a mage? What are you smoking. Are you going to make (let me rephrase) a CASTER strong in melee? Yeah, NO.


Every class needs a weakness and youre trying to rid our class of it's weakness and make it void of skill, zzzz, REROLL.


This is not the saberwielding class youre looking for. Just spam doubble strike thats approximately 300-500 damage at higher levels which isn't really optimal but if you want to saber, go for it.
The balance agrument doesnt hold water because even if Sage melee damage were doubled, it would still be only a fraction of the shadow or jedi knight. A reasonable buff to sage meelee damge would have zero effect on class balance in SWTOR.

Bourdon's Avatar


Bourdon
12.25.2011 , 09:38 PM | #13
I don't remember saying sage = mage. all I said was having a good melee attack too will make the class too strong. clearly too hard of a concept to grasp. it's really simple.

PossibleBit's Avatar


PossibleBit
12.26.2011 , 04:40 AM | #14
The Sage class is balanced around both the fact of being a ranged caster and having no cost-free "auto-attack". Saber Strike and Double strike are mere relics from the first few levels, where a consular has yet to decide between the Shadow or Sage.

Bringing in a viable "auto-attack" would probably require nerfing on some other point, as the Sage is probably on the more powerful side right now, and further buffing would be uncalled for. I personally would prefer not to see any parts of my current toolbox butchered, just to see a gimmick raised to pseudo-viability.

These "auto-attacks" and "auto-heals" (Yes they're not automatic, but I tend to stick to that name because they correspond to auto-attacks in other MMOs) are a way for classes, that - per design - have downtimes either due to ressource mechanics or skill CD or both, to fill those gaps.

The sage has an - in comparison- enormous resource pool with a rather slow regeneration rate. Additionally he has spammable nukes and/or heals and a more strategic regeneration interplay. An auto-attack for regenerative (non deteriorating) use would be like trying to have intercourse with an oil pipeline. The size of the regeneration and the time spent simply don't match.

On another note: For simple style reasons while solo questing nobody's gonna eat your face for pressing saber strike once or twice to see the animation.

Samaul's Avatar


Samaul
12.26.2011 , 08:22 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by PossibleBit View Post
The Sage class is balanced around both the fact of being a ranged caster and having no cost-free "auto-attack". Saber Strike and Double strike are mere relics from the first few levels, where a consular has yet to decide between the Shadow or Sage.

Bringing in a viable "auto-attack" would probably require nerfing on some other point, as the Sage is probably on the more powerful side right now, and further buffing would be uncalled for. I personally would prefer not to see any parts of my current toolbox butchered, just to see a gimmick raised to pseudo-viability.

These "auto-attacks" and "auto-heals" (Yes they're not automatic, but I tend to stick to that name because they correspond to auto-attacks in other MMOs) are a way for classes, that - per design - have downtimes either due to ressource mechanics or skill CD or both, to fill those gaps.

The sage has an - in comparison- enormous resource pool with a rather slow regeneration rate. Additionally he has spammable nukes and/or heals and a more strategic regeneration interplay. An auto-attack for regenerative (non deteriorating) use would be like trying to have intercourse with an oil pipeline. The size of the regeneration and the time spent simply don't match.

On another note: For simple style reasons while solo questing nobody's gonna eat your face for pressing saber strike once or twice to see the animation.
Calling any Sage ability a "nuke" is a gross exaggeration. Again, even if sage melee damage were doubled, there would be zero effect on balance. At 25, we are talking about 50-100 damage per melee hit.

What is truly silly is giving a sage arguably the most powerful melee weapon in any game ever and then having it hit like a wet noodle.

Strixs's Avatar


Strixs
12.26.2011 , 08:50 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Samaul View Post
Calling any Sage ability a "nuke" is a gross exaggeration. Again, even if sage melee damage were doubled, there would be zero effect on balance.

What is truly silly is giving a sage arguably the most powerful melee weapon in any game ever and then having it hit like a wet noodle.
^^ this truth

it is difficult to consider anything a sage throws a qualified big "nuke" since they're based around a rotation with DOT's that without the DoT's their dmg would be lacking.

Unlike say the Snip/Guns who with 1 major crit can almost say, pwned. Now those guys have "nukes".

There is nothing wrong with giving Sage a "viable" no-cost attack at the very least just for healers.

It is unbalanced for Commando / Scoundrel healers to both have no-cost abilities that scale with their primary attribute. Yet sage healers do not have this going for them. So while the Com/scoun heal they can still enjoy themselves with dmg especially in pvp where the more you do of dmg and healing the more medals you receive.


So i propose at the very least offering a talent in the Seer tree to offer 1 of either these 2 things and have it be combined with a already heal worthy talent.

Either talent A: Have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg

or talent B: have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg along with allowing the "no cost saber attack" to be turned into a kinetic force dmg that you throw the dmg as you swipe. So all the normal saber moves just without a target directly in front of you. So you are "swiping" kinetic dmg their way similar to how a knight who Performs that same action but they only get 10m's for that on a CD ability.

Though i could care less if Option B was done i just wanted to share a fun idea.

And before people skim my post and reply, I am asking for this in the HEALING tree, so no it will not effect your dps rotation as a dmg specced sage so calm down it will be ok.
Some of us healers just want to be equivalent to other Heal specced classes and to have a no-cost attack that is as effective as other healers in between heals.

Samaul's Avatar


Samaul
12.26.2011 , 09:07 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Strixs View Post


^^ this truth

it is difficult to consider anything a sage throws a qualified big "nuke" since they're based around a rotation with DOT's that without the DoT's their dmg would be lacking.

Unlike say the Snip/Guns who with 1 major crit can almost say, pwned. Now those guys have "nukes".

There is nothing wrong with giving Sage a "viable" no-cost attack at the very least just for healers.

It is unbalanced for Commando / Scoundrel healers to both have no-cost abilities that scale with their primary attribute. Yet sage healers do not have this going for them. So while the Com/scoun heal they can still enjoy themselves with dmg especially in pvp where the more you do of dmg and healing the more medals you receive.


So i propose at the very least offering a talent in the Seer tree to offer 1 of either these 2 things and have it be combined with a already heal worthy talent.

Either talent A: Have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg

or talent B: have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg along with allowing the "no cost saber attack" to be turned into a kinetic force dmg that you throw the dmg as you swipe. So all the normal saber moves just without a target directly in front of you. So you are "swiping" kinetic dmg their way similar to how a knight who Performs that same action but they only get 10m's for that on a CD ability.

Though i could care less if Option B was done i just wanted to share a fun idea.

And before people skim my post and reply, I am asking for this in the HEALING tree, so no it will not effect your dps rotation as a dmg specced sage so calm down it will be ok.
Some of us healers just want to be equivalent to other Heal specced classes and to have a no-cost attack that is as effective as other healers in between heals.
Great post. I would add to you ideas a melee attack that generates force. It sucks to be focused in melee range, all my abilities are on CD and I dont have enough Force to heal or sheild myself and I have no way to generate focus other than sacrificing already low health.

Again, we are talking about melee damage that is very low, essentially weapon damage. Even if that were buffed by 20%, it would still be suicidal to close with a strong or better enemy in melee range 1v1. What I am talking about is "last resort" melee damage, when all else fails and we are just trying to finish off a mob or player that is low health and is in melee range or generate enough force to survive.

Anelyn's Avatar


Anelyn
12.26.2011 , 10:26 AM | #18
Because it shouldn't. We don't want someone with best spells, shields, heals, force speed, knockback, instant 8s CC if specced, stun, to also go toe to toe in melee?

Because this is what would happen: you will take on that champ mob with your pet, meleeing it for no force cost regening to heal pet, while still doing great dps on him.

Seriously is just an aesthetic for you guys, take it for what it is :>

Anelyn's Avatar


Anelyn
12.26.2011 , 10:31 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Strixs View Post


^^ this truth

it is difficult to consider anything a sage throws a qualified big "nuke" since they're based around a rotation with DOT's that without the DoT's their dmg would be lacking.

Unlike say the Snip/Guns who with 1 major crit can almost say, pwned. Now those guys have "nukes".

There is nothing wrong with giving Sage a "viable" no-cost attack at the very least just for healers.

It is unbalanced for Commando / Scoundrel healers to both have no-cost abilities that scale with their primary attribute. Yet sage healers do not have this going for them. So while the Com/scoun heal they can still enjoy themselves with dmg especially in pvp where the more you do of dmg and healing the more medals you receive.


So i propose at the very least offering a talent in the Seer tree to offer 1 of either these 2 things and have it be combined with a already heal worthy talent.

Either talent A: Have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg

or talent B: have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg along with allowing the "no cost saber attack" to be turned into a kinetic force dmg that you throw the dmg as you swipe. So all the normal saber moves just without a target directly in front of you. So you are "swiping" kinetic dmg their way similar to how a knight who Performs that same action but they only get 10m's for that on a CD ability.

Though i could care less if Option B was done i just wanted to share a fun idea.

And before people skim my post and reply, I am asking for this in the HEALING tree, so no it will not effect your dps rotation as a dmg specced sage so calm down it will be ok.
Some of us healers just want to be equivalent to other Heal specced classes and to have a no-cost attack that is as effective as other healers in between heals.
Am sorry I was not aware ballance / madness are only dps trees for a sage / inq. What about Telekinetics / Lightning? Which are cast heavy nukes all over the place? The dot you use is only for a proc is not a major part of your dps. Don't tell me you use the dot on anything weaker than elites because you can 4-5 shot silvers 2-3 shot normal / weaks with your basic nuke seriously.

The other healer types - energy and heat / ammo based need the basic attack in order to keep their resource levels at bay, you as a sage / sorc do not, you regen same 8 force / s no matter how much of your resource bar is spent.

Samaul's Avatar


Samaul
12.26.2011 , 10:44 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Anelyn View Post
Because it shouldn't. We don't want someone with best spells, shields, heals, force speed, knockback, instant 8s CC if specced, stun, to also go toe to toe in melee?

Because this is what would happen: you will take on that champ mob with your pet, meleeing it for no force cost regening to heal pet, while still doing great dps on him.

Seriously is just an aesthetic for you guys, take it for what it is :>
Im sorry, are we talking about the sage here?

I think the name of the sage advanced class should be changed to "Empire Bait" in pvp. There seems to be some sort of myth of the powerful sage. Doing great dps? The only thing the sage sems to be good at is PvE healing and that is because of the force shield. My sage gets 3-shotted by melee in pvp, even with the shield up. If the empire decides to leave me alone and let me heal in pvp, I can do great things, if they focus me, I go down fast. Lets face it, Sages have only one really powerful ability and that is Force Shield. Everything else is just meh.

No one said toe to toe, I said "last resort melee". This is not wow, the classes are not black and white. We are talking about a minor buff. You just need to read before you post.