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Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

Joran-Koon's Avatar


Joran-Koon
12.08.2014 , 02:15 PM | #11
We can go to Jung Ma and take over their progression.
Kalizo
Failure
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
12.08.2014 , 02:46 PM | #12
I disagree quite a bit with the utility section. Depending on the fight, the extra duration on Saber Reflect, the cleanse for Enraged Defense, and the lowered cooldown on Enraged Defense can all have value, while the sunder effect on Smash/Slam and the speed boost on Chilling Scream are of negligible use on a lot of fights. I could maybe even see the lowered cooldown and improved DR for Intercede for some very specific fights (example, would be great for Cartel Warlords to help out whoever gets stunned at the end).

Not that the preferred utility loadout you suggest is necessarily wrong, but to suggest that as the default standard and not even mention how useful lowered cooldown on ED or extra duration on Reflect are?

EDIT: Also you guys seem confused on how the new ED cleanse works.

"However, the current design of this ability and the fact that cleanses no longer work in PVP make this a circumstantial PVE utility as I said above. "

Stuns/CC count as cleansable effects now, so its extremely useful in PVP as it acts like a second stunbreaker. It's actually better that way for PVP anyways, as not cleansing dots means you will still get all your ticks of ED, AND you get to break the stun.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
12.08.2014 , 02:50 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I disagree quite a bit with the utility section. Depending on the fight, the extra duration on Saber Reflect, the cleanse for Enraged Defense, and the lowered cooldown on Enraged Defense can all have value, while the sunder effect on Smash/Slam and the speed boost on Chilling Scream are of negligible use on a lot of fights.

Not that the preferred utility loadout you suggest is necessarily wrong, but to suggest that as the default standard and not even mention how useful lowered cooldown on ED or extra duration on Reflect are?
Reflect is very selectively useful in PVE, keyword, very selectively.

Enraged Defense as a ability is very meh as a DPS, it's great in some of the Ops that is AOE heavy but honestly, the choices we made in writing/consulting for the guide reached the conclusion that a reduced CD on Focused Defense is quite meh, especially since you can't use it preemptively, unlike ANY other defensive cooldown.
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GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
12.08.2014 , 02:51 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I disagree quite a bit with the utility section. Depending on the fight, the extra duration on Saber Reflect, the cleanse for Enraged Defense, and the lowered cooldown on Enraged Defense can all have value, while the sunder effect on Smash/Slam and the speed boost on Chilling Scream are of negligible use on a lot of fights.

Not that the preferred utility loadout you suggest is necessarily wrong, but to suggest that as the default standard and not even mention how useful lowered cooldown on ED or extra duration on Reflect are?

EDIT: Also you guys seem confused on how the new ED cleanse works.

"However, the current design of this ability and the fact that cleanses no longer work in PVP make this a circumstantial PVE utility as I said above. "

Stuns/CC count as cleansable effects now, so its extremely useful in PVP as it acts like a second stunbreaker. It's actually better that way for PVP anyways, as not cleansing dots means you will still get all your ticks of ED, AND you get to break the stun.
Is it a purge... or a cleanse? No one has managed to take the time and tell me >.>
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist, Beater #fedaracarrychist
Vigilance Guardian guide on Dulfy! Like my guide? Support my Referral Link!
Last Guardian DPS because dead game

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
12.08.2014 , 02:53 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandLordMenace View Post
Is it a purge... or a cleanse? No one has managed to take the time and tell me >.>
Well I'd think you guys would have tested these things yourself. It is a cleanse, as the ability states. It will not remove player dots, it WILL remove player stuns, I have not tested it on NPC dots yet.

Quote: Originally Posted by GrandLordMenace View Post
Reflect is very selectively useful in PVE, keyword, very selectively.

Enraged Defense as a ability is very meh as a DPS, it's great in some of the Ops that is AOE heavy but honestly, the choices we made in writing/consulting for the guide reached the conclusion that a reduced CD on Focused Defense is quite meh, especially since you can't use it preemptively, unlike ANY other defensive cooldown.
As for this, I don't think those utilities are any more selectively useful as a DPS in an ops setting than sunder on Slam or speed on Chilling Scream are. Which is why I don't understand why 2 are emphasized so far above the other 2. I think instead, you should clarify the pros and cons to each ability and suggest the person select on a fight by fight basis.

Example, there are fights where the raid as a whole will take tons of ticking AOE damage (in story mode ToS I can already confirm this on the 3rd boss), using ED on cooldown there saves your healers a ton of trouble, and having ED available 30 seconds faster means you can get 2-3 additional uses out of it in an encounter. Conversely, I can't see the speed on Chilling Scream or the sunder on Slam having any real use on that fight. MAYBE you could argue for the sunder on Slam for the adds, but they aren't really grouped up well enough to hit multiple with 1 slam in most cases.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
12.08.2014 , 03:09 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Well I'd think you guys would have tested these things yourself. It is a cleanse, as the ability states. It will not remove player dots, it WILL remove player stuns, I have not tested it on NPC dots yet.



As for this, I don't think those utilities are any more selectively useful as a DPS in an ops setting than sunder on Slam or speed on Chilling Scream are. Which is why I don't understand why 2 are emphasized so far above the other 2. I think instead, you should clarify the pros and cons to each ability and suggest the person select on a fight by fight basis.

Example, there are fights where the raid as a whole will take tons of ticking AOE damage (in story mode ToS I can already confirm this on the 3rd boss), using ED on cooldown there saves your healers a ton of trouble, and having ED available 30 seconds faster means you can get 2-3 additional uses out of it in an encounter. Conversely, I can't see the speed on Chilling Scream or the sunder on Slam having any real use on that fight. MAYBE you could argue for the sunder on Slam for the adds, but they aren't really grouped up well enough to hit multiple with 1 slam in most cases.
I definitely agree with you on choices regarding utilities and presenting "options"

I would say that Guardianship is a must group utility, similar to your reason on reduced Focused Defense CD. In the second boss of TOS, multiple times already, Guardianship has made the difference between a living person and a dead person, because when you only have 1 health, that absorb bubble could make the half GCD difference for the healer's cast to get off just in time. Purifying Sweep is more debatable. I would take it for any fight where target switching is a common occurrence, as any fight where having the ability to create an armor debuff practically ANYWHERE in your rotation is a gigantic awesome bonus. That being said, for a single target sustained DPS slugout, the talent could be put elsewhere.

Similarly, I disagree that movement talents are mandatory, they should be selectively used. Freezing Force giving a speed boost SOUNDS cool, but you may go out of your way to apply it, plus it only covers the 5 meter radius around you, it's really only useful for people standing literally on top of you.

I've probably gotten the most mileage out of:

Battlefield Command, Defiance, and the Cyclone Slash talent (forget name)

Purifying Sweep and Guardianship

And lower FD CD and speedboost on enure.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist, Beater #fedaracarrychist
Vigilance Guardian guide on Dulfy! Like my guide? Support my Referral Link!
Last Guardian DPS because dead game

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
12.08.2014 , 03:30 PM | #17
I'm a little miffed at the Opener, why delay the Reseted Ravage till after Force Scream and VT? Shouldnt it be

ST > FC > [Relic/Adrenal] > Impale > Ravage > Shatter > Ravage > Force Scream > VT ?

Would that yield more DPS or am I just being stupid and Force Scream actually does respectable damage now?

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
12.08.2014 , 03:53 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
I'm a little miffed at the Opener, why delay the Reseted Ravage till after Force Scream and VT? Shouldnt it be

ST > FC > [Relic/Adrenal] > Impale > Ravage > Shatter > Ravage > Force Scream > VT ?

Would that yield more DPS or am I just being stupid and Force Scream actually does respectable damage now?
Force scream doesn't have a cooldown reset, so if you delay it you'll have less damage at the end of the fight. But since Ravage does have a cooldown reset, you can delay it until 2 GCDs before using Shatter and it won't be a DPS loss.
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Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
12.08.2014 , 05:09 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
Force scream doesn't have a cooldown reset, so if you delay it you'll have less damage at the end of the fight. But since Ravage does have a cooldown reset, you can delay it until 2 GCDs before using Shatter and it won't be a DPS loss.
Ok? but the Force Scream DoT and the damage itself isnt THAT high enough to put it as priority over Ravage in the opener is it? i'm talking Opening damage, not overall for the entire fight.

Also, in your Sig, you Misspelled Level.

Cotlu-Hunlon's Avatar


Cotlu-Hunlon
12.08.2014 , 06:34 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
Ok? but the Force Scream DoT and the damage itself isnt THAT high enough to put it as priority over Ravage in the opener is it? i'm talking Opening damage, not overall for the entire fight.

Also, in your Sig, you Misspelled Level.
It's not about Force Scream vs Ravage, it's about putting everything on cooldown as fast as possible.

From the moment that you hit Shatter and start its 12 sec cooldown, you have a 10.5 secs (well technically 7.5s) window of time during which you can use Ravage at any point. Its cooldown is reset and it's not going anywhere - it will still be reset after using some other attacks, and you can't reset it again any sooner by putting Ravage back on cd again straight away because resetting the cd comes from Shatter. Hope that's clearer for you

EDIT: Give this thread a sticky too, it deserves it, great work

The Nostalgia Thread - Come live in December 2011 with me